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[Music]

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hello

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and welcome to the show i'm martin

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willis your host and i

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am pretty darn excited about tonight uh

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by the way i

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am actually i'm outside i know you can't

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really see me now

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those of you on youtube you can sort of

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see me go in and out

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uh they were saying earlier i look like

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one of these people that are being

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interviewed

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that i want to stay anonymous but uh

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this has to do with backlighting

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but i'm out actually my front yard

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there's actually a turkey right there

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walking around right in front of me here

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i'm in the front yard uh

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today i went in my studio about an hour

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ago and

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it was blistering hot no ventilation no

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air conditioning

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so i said the heck with it i found i did

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have a 200 foot ethernet cable and here

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i am down

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at the waterfront i'm pretty pretty

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happy about that it's it's pretty nice

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so i got my

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hawaiian type shirt on and we have a

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wonderful show

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uh so uh who we have tonight we have the

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son

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of j allen heineck and uh paul heineck

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he will be

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on and uh and we have don schmidt and

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they kind of like to

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uh sort of tease each other a bit so i

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think we're gonna have

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a couple of laughs tonight as well we're

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gonna talk about the great

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jay allen heineck and uh also we're

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gonna be talking about don's

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new book that he has out we started to

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don was on the show

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i think was it two or three weeks ago

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and

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right in the middle of the sentence he

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froze and

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i didn't know what was going on we tried

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his phone we went to break

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we tried everything possible and we

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couldn't even reach him no matter what

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even late at night

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he was just playing gone and what what

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it was was a uh he had a lightning

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strike

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that um hit a transformer and

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his phone was connected to it and

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everything so he's back tonight luckily

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he was able to come back

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i want to talk uh before we get into the

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show just quickly about a couple things

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first of all we're live on facebook as

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well

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um every tuesday night so that's

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something we're simulcasts both

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um on youtube and facebook

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our facebook page has a lot going on

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there there's over 20 000 people

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and there's uh things posted every day

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and

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uh peggy's been helping out with that uh

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she's been a great help all these years

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and uh also i want to talk about our

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blog this week we have

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uh friends from ufos uh that's by

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charles lear

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and it's really fascinating i had no

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idea how much

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italy was involved in the contact

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contact e movement

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in the day and uh he goes really deep

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into that and i got to tell you

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something else

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charles is now recording audio

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of the blogs so every uh

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i would say a day or two after this

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podcast comes out every week

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as long as he does it it's up to him to

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do it but if he

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if he does do it i will post them on the

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podcast feed so anywhere you listen to

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this podcast

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whether it's through itunes your um ipod

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whatever

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uh ipad however you listen you will be

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able to pick up

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the um the audio blog

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as well without further ado up here i am

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i look like the man in black again i

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wasn't noticing i have no backlight

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so uh without further ado i'm gonna

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bring both our guests in

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welcome to the show paul hi martin

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and welcome don thank you for having me

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back

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so you know i i look i look terrible i

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mean you can see the water behind me but

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you can't see me

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so i'm gonna pull myself totally out of

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this uh but

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um i would like actually i can't do it

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because it'll mute my mic

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so i would like to ask you to

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uh basically don you were on you kind of

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explained who you were and everything

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paul do you mind uh giving the listener

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your your background

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and uh then of course we're going to be

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talking about your father

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sure um happy to be here with my good

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friend don schmidt

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um and martin don and i are

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quite familiar with men in black so you

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look just fine to us

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perfect good yeah so i'm the uh favorite

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fourth-born son of daryan and my mom

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mimi heineck

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um uh i have sort of two hats one is a

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cfo

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i'm a wharton mba i'm a professor at

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pepperdine and i created financial

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projection software for startups

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and on the other hand the other had

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awareness of ufos

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so um i'm just very happy to be here and

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and talk to you about my dad and

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whatever else i can

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fill in the little gaps that don can't

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do ably himself

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yeah that's true uh uh don so do you

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remember actually when you were working

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with uh

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do you remember

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seeing paul because he was the favorite

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i guess right a number of occasions

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at the home on ridge avenue as far as in

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evanston

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but uh never at the office i don't know

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if

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he was being restricted by his uh mother

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and father for that

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reason or uh i don't believe your

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interest was uh

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really that keen on the subject at that

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time paul correct

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well you know it's interesting i i grew

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up with ufos so it's never something i

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had to make

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um active efforts to be involved with

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there's always been a spoon fed

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so i was at the office of paramount uh

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folding envelopes and the like but

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i think my father felt at that point i

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wasn't an especially contributing

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well he was a discriminating uh

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professor no question

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but uh i i honestly i i paul i'll say

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this

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to you i don't think there's a day that

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goes by

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that i don't think to myself now what

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would alan

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is such that

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i i it's it's it's grounded me

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to the extent that so many things that

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dr jalen heineck would just step aside

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and he would go

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irrelevant doesn't matter doesn't matter

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what you say it doesn't matter what you

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think because i'm not going to

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waste my time with it and

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i just love the fact that he so often

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would tell us now

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you know don't lose that little boy

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wonderment

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the idea that you know every time you

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peer up at the stars at night

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you know just let your imagination go

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wild and as you know better than anyone

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paul your father had a

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vivid imagination he just loved

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entertaining

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every possibility you know that was out

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that's really great um now

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i'm gonna is that a cat i thought i was

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hearing something

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wow that's my howler monkey associate

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that's yeah yeah i thought that was a

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sound effect you had going or something

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uh do you um do you remember

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um paul this question's for you do you

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remember your

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your father um at the point where

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all of a sudden he realized there was

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really something to this ufo thing

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kind of where he sort of turned the

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corner

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um as from a skeptic to someone that

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really do

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do you actually remember remember those

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days or remember him talking about those

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well uh that would have been a little

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bit after my

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sort of conscious awareness of the topic

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um you know because i was born in the

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early 60s

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so my older siblings remember him kind

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of wrestling with that

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and starting off as a confirmed skeptic

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i i wouldn't say he became a believer as

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a lot of people say

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because i don't think belief is really a

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a word that scientists

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like to traffic in that's right i'm a

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skeptic to

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an acceptor of the accumulated weight of

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the data

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yes uh there uh i understand i i

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i get corrected you know i have been

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corrected a number of times when i said

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the word belief because

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you know you're right it's they want to

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know the data and they're not

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not believing into anything a scientist

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isn't going to look to believe in

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anything they just want to see the facts

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i don't know if that's exactly right but

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along those lines

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um but dawn when you're on the

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outside now that's going way back when

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did you first start working

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with uh dr heineck in 1978

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hi i was a a state director food

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investigator for the area

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aerial phenomenal research organization

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at that time that actually had its

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foundings in wisconsin before it went

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down to

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tucson founded by coral and jim lorenzen

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and i had written up a number of reports

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and somehow one of them crossed

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dr heineck's desk down at

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kufos and he invited me down to the

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residence

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and uh was the first time i actually had

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met

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with dr heineck and his wife mimi

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and we hit it off very well and i i i

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especially remember you know that we hit

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it off

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as far as our sense of humor that we

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were even telling jokes to one another

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by the end of the evening

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and within weeks he was calling me up

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assigning me a case you know don we have

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something that happened in southern

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illinois

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uh if you have the time like you look

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into it that type of thing

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and uh you know the rest just uh

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i was coming down to the office from

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wisconsin twice a week and

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just there would be calls that would

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come into the office and alan would go

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here don you take this one

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and it would be a prank it would be

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somebody you know just

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clearly you know just making something

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ridiculous but that's how we were

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also enjoying one another's company so

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as serious as it could be

284
00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:29,279
on one a plane we were also trying to

285
00:10:33,509 --> 00:10:31,040
make light of it because

286
00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:33,519
we didn't have answers so as a result it

287
00:10:37,350 --> 00:10:34,800
was all we could do

288
00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:37,360
just to you know remain in contact with

289
00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:43,509
i'm going to ask this question it's in

290
00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:44,480
our chat

291
00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:46,240
and it might be a sensitive question if

292
00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:48,880
it is that's that's fine but um

293
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:50,640
i just i don't know if either one of you

294
00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:52,000
know the answer to this

295
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,560
and that is did dr heineck really drop

296
00:10:57,509 --> 00:10:56,399
off software and equipment to paul

297
00:11:01,190 --> 00:10:57,519
benowitz

298
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:01,200
do we know that to be a fact

299
00:11:06,389 --> 00:11:04,240
no no i never

300
00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:06,399
and even those who work with benowitz

301
00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:08,000
and when i

302
00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:11,279
with april because benowitz you know

303
00:11:15,430 --> 00:11:13,120
worked with the area phenomena research

304
00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:15,440
organization at that time

305
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:17,680
and i i've never heard anything

306
00:11:22,630 --> 00:11:19,279
suggested

307
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:22,640
of that nature no so that was uh

308
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:24,720
that was actually about the same time

309
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:26,720
that you were working with him

310
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:28,880
i think it was 1979 or something like

311
00:11:33,590 --> 00:11:30,560
that with benowitz right

312
00:11:34,310 --> 00:11:33,600
that would be correct yes yeah yeah just

313
00:11:37,509 --> 00:11:34,320
before

314
00:11:38,949 --> 00:11:37,519
uh berlitz and moore did roswell winston

315
00:11:41,910 --> 00:11:38,959
in 1980

316
00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:41,920
and keeping in mind that bill moore

317
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:43,200
william moore

318
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,560
uh was an investigator with april

319
00:11:49,910 --> 00:11:48,560
and he was the one that was in direct

320
00:11:52,150 --> 00:11:49,920
contact with benowitz

321
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:52,160
on a regular basis and for all the times

322
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:53,279
i met with moore

323
00:11:57,350 --> 00:11:56,000
he never mentioned anything about heinek

324
00:12:00,069 --> 00:11:57,360
in that regard no

325
00:12:01,030 --> 00:12:00,079
yeah that that's such a sad situation in

326
00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:01,040
general

327
00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:04,240
but you know um it really is a really

328
00:12:08,790 --> 00:12:05,440
good case

329
00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:08,800
for um misinformation

330
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:11,440
and you know you you wonder you know

331
00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:13,200
with richard doughty and all the

332
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:15,839
misinformation and i'm still wondering

333
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:17,440
if there may be an element of

334
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:20,880
of uh disinformation to this day

335
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:22,160
some things that have been happening

336
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:25,120
lately it just makes me wonder about um

337
00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:26,399
a few different people and a few

338
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:28,480
different things that are being said

339
00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:31,680
and um have you seen you've been

340
00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:33,839
at this pretty seriously dawn for a long

341
00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:36,639
time you know besides bill moore

342
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:38,160
richard doty have you seen a lot of

343
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:39,600
cases where there are myths there was

344
00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:42,720
misinformation out there

345
00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:45,120
i wouldn't say a lot i would say that

346
00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:47,040
these would be the exception

347
00:12:51,509 --> 00:12:50,800
and it were it would involve typically

348
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:51,519
cases

349
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:54,560
that monetarily

350
00:13:01,350 --> 00:12:59,519
uh you know potentially you know

351
00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:01,360
you know would reap you know a high

352
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:03,200
reward

353
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:07,920
as to the nature of a case in so much as

354
00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:11,040
one could always ask well is it because

355
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:12,720
you're getting too close

356
00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:14,959
like they they knew too much about the

357
00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:17,360
flying saucers that type of thing

358
00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:18,959
and then you're talking you're getting

359
00:13:22,310 --> 00:13:20,560
crossing over into the uh

360
00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:22,320
the alleged men in black you know

361
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:24,240
phenomena that type of thing

362
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:26,959
but as far as disinformation i think it

363
00:13:34,389 --> 00:13:27,519
was

364
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:34,399
would involve overly zealous rogue

365
00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:36,720
individuals within the government or

366
00:13:40,629 --> 00:13:38,079
within the military

367
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:40,639
that just saw easy individuals that they

368
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:41,600
could manipulate

369
00:13:46,150 --> 00:13:43,680
and would pass off you know phony

370
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:46,160
documents and get away with it

371
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,040
um you know we have to always you know

372
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:51,360
bear in mind that

373
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:53,360
if it's the real article or if these

374
00:13:57,910 --> 00:13:55,199
people get caught

375
00:13:59,910 --> 00:13:57,920
they open up you know a pandora's box

376
00:14:02,949 --> 00:13:59,920
that they may never close

377
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:02,959
it's a catch-22 so it's one thing to

378
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:05,279
dangle a carrot and keep pulling it away

379
00:14:10,310 --> 00:14:06,639
but the moment you start

380
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:10,320
you know putting out this information

381
00:14:14,069 --> 00:14:12,560
and you're held responsible you're

382
00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:14,079
finally determined to be the source of

383
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:16,480
that disinformation no one's going to

384
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,279
cover for you

385
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:19,519
that's when it's like he wasn't acting

386
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:20,560
any any

387
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:22,480
orders on our part you know he was a

388
00:14:26,310 --> 00:14:23,760
rogue he was a maverick

389
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,320
he was doing this on his own and i think

390
00:14:28,949 --> 00:14:28,320
that the latter is it's generally been

391
00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:28,959
the case

392
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,839
these are just rogue individuals that

393
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,600
have always seen

394
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:35,760
people within ufology that at times can

395
00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:36,800
be rather gullible

396
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:39,760
and i don't deny i've been there myself

397
00:14:42,069 --> 00:14:40,560
so but

398
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:42,079
that's the problem in dealing with

399
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:44,480
something where we have no answers

400
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:47,680
anytime someone uh you know provides

401
00:14:50,949 --> 00:14:48,959
something that looks

402
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:50,959
potentially good we're going to be the

403
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:53,040
first ones that look into it

404
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:57,120
yeah uh i know you were just joking paul

405
00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:57,600
about

406
00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:01,600
uh men in black but did that topic

407
00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:03,040
and i'm being serious here did that

408
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:06,399
topic ever come up in your household

409
00:15:11,670 --> 00:15:09,680
uh absolutely really okay let's hear

410
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:11,680
about that

411
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:17,030
my dad would recount how there were

412
00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:19,360
several cases where

413
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:22,000
the witnesses would just clam up and say

414
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:23,199
that they don't think they used the

415
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,639
phrase men in black

416
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:26,320
but that they had been visited by some

417
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:28,720
kind of intimidating

418
00:15:33,509 --> 00:15:31,920
presence and my dad thought it was

419
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:33,519
government but

420
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:35,920
you know we tend to think of the us

421
00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:36,800
government as

422
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:39,519
acting in one monolithic block but

423
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:41,199
nothing to be further from the truth you

424
00:15:43,269 --> 00:15:41,440
have

425
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:43,279
all these warring fiefdoms i mean the

426
00:15:45,910 --> 00:15:44,800
different branches of the service don't

427
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:45,920
trust each other

428
00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:47,440
different elements within the each

429
00:15:51,509 --> 00:15:49,199
service don't trust each other

430
00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:51,519
so on the one hand you have an

431
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:52,639
officially sanctioned

432
00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:55,839
air force program ostensibly trying to

433
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:57,440
find the truth and is actually

434
00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:00,399
a pr exercise and going out and

435
00:16:05,509 --> 00:16:02,160
investigating these cases

436
00:16:07,269 --> 00:16:05,519
and on the other hand you have these

437
00:16:09,269 --> 00:16:07,279
what seem to be government agents maybe

438
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:09,279
from the 46th or second air intelligence

439
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:11,680
service squadron or who knows

440
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:13,360
trying to squelch the information at the

441
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:14,959
same time so they

442
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:17,120
for me the interesting aspect of that

443
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:18,720
assuming that they were real

444
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:21,279
and that they were from an entity of the

445
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:22,399
us government

446
00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:24,160
is that you seem to have various

447
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:25,519
elements of the government

448
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:28,800
working at cross purposes

449
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:31,600
yeah a number of times i've i've

450
00:16:35,749 --> 00:16:32,480
wondered if

451
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:35,759
there's some type of compartmentalized

452
00:16:39,509 --> 00:16:37,120
part of the government

453
00:16:40,790 --> 00:16:39,519
that may know a little more than other

454
00:16:43,030 --> 00:16:40,800
parts of the government

455
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:43,040
but it's awful it's awful hard to say

456
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:44,399
and we're going to be talking about

457
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:45,279
roswell

458
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:49,120
a little bit later but as far as

459
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:51,920
something like that goes we're talking a

460
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:52,560
secret

461
00:16:58,710 --> 00:16:55,600
all the way back

462
00:17:00,389 --> 00:16:58,720
to the roswell era how

463
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,399
how would something like that move

464
00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:02,160
forward in government would either one

465
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:03,680
of you want to ponder how that would

466
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:06,480
work like how would it be carried on to

467
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:08,400
the next generation

468
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:12,160
to this day within official

469
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:15,839
circles my concern for many years has

470
00:17:20,390 --> 00:17:17,520
been that the old order

471
00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:20,400
has not passed it down to the new that

472
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:22,880
all the deep dark secrets

473
00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:26,240
regarding whether you know the roswell

474
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:27,919
or some of the other you know more

475
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:29,280
profound

476
00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:31,760
uh incidents and especially if you're

477
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:32,720
talking about

478
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:36,640
uh recovery operations the uh

479
00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:40,559
acquiring of physical evidence that

480
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:43,760
they just haven't shared this

481
00:17:48,310 --> 00:17:46,799
outside of respective ranks uh paul is

482
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:48,320
absolutely correct as far as

483
00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:51,039
the competition within even just the

484
00:17:55,990 --> 00:17:53,440
different branches of the military

485
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:56,000
uh i i'd like to always point out that

486
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:56,480
when

487
00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:00,000
project blue book disbanded

488
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:03,280
actually at the end of 1969 and we can

489
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:04,720
get into

490
00:18:07,990 --> 00:18:07,120
his dad still being kept on a short

491
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:08,000
leash

492
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:10,160
for the next few years even after blue

493
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:12,240
book shut down

494
00:18:18,150 --> 00:18:13,760
but when blue book was finally

495
00:18:21,190 --> 00:18:18,160
declassified in 1977

496
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:21,200
and for example it would refer to

497
00:18:27,909 --> 00:18:24,400
over 20 gun camera cases

498
00:18:30,789 --> 00:18:27,919
okay it lists them but where's the

499
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:30,799
actual footage where's the film

500
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:31,919
well you know that was never

501
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:34,080
declassified

502
00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:36,799
some of the photograph cases it would

503
00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:37,600
reference

504
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:40,960
but again where were the photographs but

505
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:43,600
most interesting of all was the fact

506
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:45,120
that

507
00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:51,600
they supposedly investigated

508
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:54,160
where were are the army cases all the

509
00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:55,360
navy cases

510
00:19:02,390 --> 00:18:58,880
the marine corps national guard uh

511
00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:02,400
that type of thing i'm sure it wasn't

512
00:19:05,909 --> 00:19:02,720
just

513
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:05,919
strictly an air force phenomenon

514
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:08,559
and in reality the navy even had greater

515
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:10,400
coverage on a a

516
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:13,840
global basis they weren't restricted to

517
00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:15,840
you know air spaces you know or

518
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:18,320
respective countries that type of thing

519
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:21,760
and yet it was almost 99

520
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:24,480
air force so personally i believe

521
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:25,200
there's still a

522
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:28,880
wealth of material out there within navy

523
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:31,919
files within uh the army within the air

524
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:32,559
corps

525
00:19:42,310 --> 00:19:38,640
roswell back in 1947 was an

526
00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:42,320
army incident it was united states army

527
00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:44,160
the air force didn't even exist back at

528
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:51,430
yeah well it's really

529
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:55,280
pretty interesting that um they

530
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:58,080
they can move forward with this this

531
00:20:02,470 --> 00:19:59,120
type of thing

532
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:02,480
and you know where are the where where

533
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:05,679
are the all the the films and

534
00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:08,720
all the you know the files

535
00:20:11,990 --> 00:20:10,880
that um from what i understand to

536
00:20:14,789 --> 00:20:12,000
correct me if i'm wrong

537
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:14,799
either one of you but some of the cases

538
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:15,760
did not go to

539
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:18,320
project blue book they went somewhere

540
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:19,200
else

541
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:22,480
and it seems to me that um

542
00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:24,159
they were probably some of the better

543
00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:25,760
cases is that

544
00:20:29,870 --> 00:20:28,799
am i getting that right yeah i think

545
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:29,880
especially as of

546
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:33,600
1953 the sort of facade of blue book as

547
00:20:38,149 --> 00:20:35,520
any kind of

548
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:38,159
serious scientific exercise had had worn

549
00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:38,880
off

550
00:20:44,149 --> 00:20:42,240
and those cases probably went to the

551
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:44,159
46th or second air intelligence service

552
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:44,960
squadron

553
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:48,960
responsibility

554
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:50,880
of getting anywhere in the continental

555
00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:53,840
united states within six hours

556
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:57,760
for a crash site a crash of anything

557
00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:59,200
and they had russian speakers with them

558
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:01,520
as well so

559
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:04,080
i think by that point if there was any

560
00:21:07,669 --> 00:21:05,039
serious

561
00:21:08,710 --> 00:21:07,679
effort to capture something reverse

562
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:08,720
engineer

563
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,080
it wasn't in the hands of blue book

564
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:12,720
which was more a pr exercise to tamp

565
00:21:16,950 --> 00:21:13,520
down

566
00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:16,960
post-war hysteria i'm really pleased

567
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:18,880
that paul you've mentioned the 46 or

568
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:22,159
second a number of times because

569
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:24,159
people just always resigned themselves

570
00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:25,840
to accept that it was strictly the air

571
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,200
force and strictly

572
00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:29,200
project blue book and there was nothing

573
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:30,799
outside of that

574
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:33,760
purview so to speak but even your dad

575
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:36,000
would meet with the 4602 and he would

576
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:38,400
argue with them because

577
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:40,400
it was quite clear to him and as he

578
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:41,520
would even lament

579
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:44,159
us that the hardcore cases as he would

580
00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:44,880
put it

581
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,880
were not going to blue book they were

582
00:21:51,350 --> 00:21:48,480
going elsewhere

583
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:51,360
and that your your dad time and time

584
00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:52,240
again

585
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:54,799
he would talk to sac officers strategic

586
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:55,520
air command

587
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:58,000
officers and military and commercial

588
00:22:00,950 --> 00:21:58,960
pilots

589
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:00,960
and they would describe to him some of

590
00:22:05,350 --> 00:22:02,400
the most profound

591
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:05,360
cases and yet he would go down the right

592
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:07,039
path in dayton ohio and

593
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:09,280
wade through you know the previous

594
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:10,720
month's reports

595
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:13,840
and he'd expect to see those cases

596
00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:16,480
and they were never there where did they

597
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:17,200
go

598
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:19,280
well your dad knew where they went they

599
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:21,520
were not going the blue book

600
00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:23,280
because blue book was nothing more than

601
00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:25,600
a pr front i mean your dad saw that

602
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:28,720
early on and one would then ask

603
00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:31,760
why did he stay on well he wanted to

604
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:35,760
as he would say be as far as

605
00:22:40,230 --> 00:22:39,440
be close to the data he fully wanted to

606
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:40,240
be there

607
00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:42,480
if there ever was an end game if the

608
00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:43,919
race were ever to end

609
00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:46,960
he still wanted to be in the race

610
00:22:50,549 --> 00:22:48,640
and if he would have walked away at any

611
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:50,559
time he knows they would have cut him

612
00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:51,120
off

613
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:55,520
altogether so he had to play both sides

614
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:58,159
within the scientific community and

615
00:23:02,070 --> 00:22:59,440
within his

616
00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:02,080
his his top secret classification with

617
00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:03,120
project blue book

618
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:05,919
but did he know for a fact that he was

619
00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:06,640
not

620
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:09,840
uh having access to the hardcore data

621
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:12,880
absolutely absolutely yeah i think

622
00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:14,240
you're right um

623
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:16,400
don i think my father felt there were

624
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:17,840
three communities

625
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:19,600
he had to be cognizant of and you

626
00:23:23,669 --> 00:23:21,600
mentioned two of them that science the

627
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:23,679
mainstream scientific community

628
00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:26,640
of the military and government and also

629
00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:28,080
ufo believers

630
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:30,000
yeah i think he felt he had to keep each

631
00:23:33,909 --> 00:23:31,360
of them at least

632
00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:33,919
mildly displeased and then he was doing

633
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:37,120
a an adequate balancing act

634
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:39,520
um what did your as far as you know paul

635
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:40,559
what did your

636
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:43,440
father think about you mentioned crashed

637
00:23:47,669 --> 00:23:45,679
uh possible crashed ufos

638
00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:47,679
was that something that came up that

639
00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:50,880
that you're aware of

640
00:23:54,549 --> 00:23:53,600
sure because for the most part my father

641
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:54,559
realized that

642
00:23:59,110 --> 00:23:56,720
don and he and others weren't studying

643
00:24:01,269 --> 00:23:59,120
ufos they were studying ufo reports

644
00:24:02,789 --> 00:24:01,279
so it's like one level removed and

645
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:02,799
that's sort of the insight that helped

646
00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:04,080
him come up with the

647
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:05,600
classification system of close

648
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:07,360
encounters of the first second and third

649
00:24:11,029 --> 00:24:08,000
kind

650
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:11,039
right so scientists as an astrophysicist

651
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:13,600
trained in nuts and bolts newtonian

652
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:15,679
physics

653
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:19,440
crashes and and data and and evidence

654
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:22,000
whether it's radar corroboration or gun

655
00:24:26,870 --> 00:24:23,200
camera footage

656
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:26,880
or you know a blessed actual

657
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:28,960
piece of evidence that's something that

658
00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:32,400
a scientist would jump towards

659
00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:34,640
wow interesting and i think and paul

660
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:37,120
you're absolutely correct in that

661
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:39,520
your father was actually becoming more

662
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:41,600
and more intrigued with the

663
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:43,760
possibility of crash retrievals just as

664
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:45,520
i was becoming involved with him

665
00:24:50,310 --> 00:24:47,360
and there was also at the time that the

666
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:50,320
late leonard springfield

667
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:53,279
presented his paper in dayton ohio on

668
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:54,159
his crash

669
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:57,760
retrieval investigations and your

670
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:00,880
father just literally hounded

671
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:04,640
len for the release of his

672
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:07,520
source information he was your dad won

673
00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:08,720
the talk to these

674
00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:12,640
very witnesses whether military or not

675
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:15,600
and it was something that until your

676
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:18,080
father died that he had a tremendous

677
00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:19,360
fascination with

678
00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:22,640
and we'll get into it more in specifics

679
00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:24,960
but uh for those who would suggest that

680
00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:26,720
alan heineck totally pooh-poohed the

681
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:27,360
notion

682
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:29,200
that we were dealing with the nuts and

683
00:25:33,669 --> 00:25:31,679
bolts physical craft of sorts

684
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:33,679
no then then they're demonstrating they

685
00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:36,480
never knew the man

686
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:38,640
wow interesting i just wanted to post

687
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:39,600
this up

688
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:42,480
um is this is this so paul did your

689
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:42,880
brother

690
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:46,080
in bent the bullet dodge

691
00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:49,200
uh for neo in the matrix yes that's

692
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:49,520
right

693
00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:51,520
and um it's a long story but he should

694
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:52,720
have won the oscar for that

695
00:25:56,950 --> 00:25:55,039
uh but he won the oscar for the movie

696
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:56,960
after he created and conceived bullet

697
00:25:59,909 --> 00:25:57,760
time

698
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:59,919
um and the other effects in the matrix

699
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:01,919
he went to another movie

700
00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:04,799
and his assistant uh won the mate won

701
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:05,039
the

702
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:10,880
dreams may come

703
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:13,760
wow isn't that something boy what a uh

704
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:15,440
creative family you have

705
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:18,799
that's really something uh so paul

706
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:22,320
what was it was your house um

707
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:24,320
a place where other kids wanted to hang

708
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:25,760
out to see what i would there was

709
00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:27,039
i mean it must have been a really cool

710
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:33,430
talking about ufos and or what was ufos

711
00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:36,080
like on the table all the time or was it

712
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:38,000
a subject your father wanted to

713
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,080
kind of keep to himself or was he open

714
00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:45,190
uh our house was a gathering how

715
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:46,080
gathering spot

716
00:26:50,149 --> 00:26:48,960
for many years for both scientific

717
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:50,159
discussions and

718
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:54,240
uh rybald parties um yeah ufos was it

719
00:26:57,590 --> 00:26:55,919
was a fascination to my father i mean

720
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:57,600
when he got involved he was an

721
00:27:01,430 --> 00:26:59,760
astrophysicist and rocket scientist and

722
00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:01,440
professor of astronomy

723
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:03,520
and when he was originally asked by the

724
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:04,480
air force

725
00:27:07,510 --> 00:27:06,240
to help them i don't know if they use

726
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:07,520
the word study

727
00:27:12,149 --> 00:27:10,400
uh ufos i i think he probably thought it

728
00:27:12,870 --> 00:27:12,159
was a few weekends worth of time not

729
00:27:19,269 --> 00:27:12,880
even a

730
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:19,279
you know he's known for that now in in

731
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:21,440
some circles but he was a scientist

732
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:24,320
and so he got into it and i i think he

733
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:25,840
had no idea

734
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:27,840
that don and i would be talking with you

735
00:27:31,510 --> 00:27:30,240
martin you know decades later about this

736
00:27:34,789 --> 00:27:31,520
part of his life

737
00:27:36,149 --> 00:27:34,799
um and he got but he it's fascinating

738
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:36,159
it's one of the biggest questions ever

739
00:27:39,909 --> 00:27:37,600
to face mankind

740
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:39,919
and he helped i think pushed the needle

741
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:41,360
that much farther

742
00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:43,360
on our collective understanding of what

743
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:45,360
this phenomena represents and

744
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:48,240
what it may be um so he it wasn't

745
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:49,440
something that

746
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:51,120
you know a lot of blue book as as don

747
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:52,960
mentioned wasn't classified

748
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:55,440
even at the time and my father really

749
00:27:59,110 --> 00:27:56,480
didn't feel

750
00:28:00,549 --> 00:27:59,120
that he had to hide things from us he

751
00:28:01,269 --> 00:28:00,559
also didn't want to force it down our

752
00:28:03,909 --> 00:28:01,279
throats i mean

753
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:03,919
my parents they came from a generation

754
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:05,360
where they wouldn't

755
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:07,120
initiate a lot of conversations about

756
00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:09,520
themselves and what they did and what

757
00:28:13,350 --> 00:28:10,480
they felt

758
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:13,360
it just was sort of unseemly to do that

759
00:28:16,149 --> 00:28:14,159
so

760
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:16,159
a lot of things that i know about my

761
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:18,080
parents both of them are things i found

762
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:18,480
out

763
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:21,279
from people like don and others uh but

764
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:23,039
otherwise we had to actively ask

765
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:25,039
questions and we were fascinated by ufos

766
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:25,440
i mean

767
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:27,520
if your dad's going around the world and

768
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:29,440
i never met anybody who traveled as much

769
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,399
as he did

770
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:32,640
and coming back with trinkets from bora

771
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:33,600
bora

772
00:28:38,470 --> 00:28:36,720
and you know and south africa it's

773
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:38,480
fascinating and then he starts telling

774
00:28:41,909 --> 00:28:40,320
you about people like father gill who

775
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:41,919
came to the house for dinner

776
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:45,840
um and these fantastical reports

777
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:48,240
and you see you know my mother editing

778
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:50,880
copies of the international ufo reporter

779
00:28:55,269 --> 00:28:53,600
on the dining room table um you're just

780
00:28:58,230 --> 00:28:55,279
drawn into it

781
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:58,240
wow that's really awesome um your mother

782
00:29:02,470 --> 00:28:58,880
your mother

783
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:02,480
in many regards ran the office

784
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:04,720
because your father and i remember he

785
00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:06,720
was on the road practically every four

786
00:29:10,549 --> 00:29:08,799
days

787
00:29:12,310 --> 00:29:10,559
and i'll never forget when he was up in

788
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:12,320
his stalin it was probably

789
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:15,360
the last major trip he made

790
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:18,320
and describing how they were thrudging

791
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:19,520
through

792
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:23,039
knee deep snow to get to the camp

793
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:26,159
and he came back with just a bad cold

794
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:29,200
bad head cold and i drove him out to

795
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:29,919
dinner

796
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:31,440
that particular night and i could see

797
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:33,440
that he wasn't feeling well that there

798
00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:35,440
seemed to be something else

799
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:39,039
but the one thing that

800
00:29:43,350 --> 00:29:41,600
i believe and it was it was the case

801
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:43,360
with the hudson valley

802
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:46,720
signings in the latter years of his life

803
00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:48,960
that jenny zeidman who was his private

804
00:29:51,909 --> 00:29:50,720
secretary who would accompany actually

805
00:29:55,830 --> 00:29:51,919
drive him down

806
00:29:58,149 --> 00:29:55,840
from northwestern down to uh right patch

807
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:58,159
one every month to go through wade

808
00:30:02,789 --> 00:29:59,919
through the reports

809
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:02,799
and we agreed that it was like alan was

810
00:30:06,710 --> 00:30:04,480
able to get out and play cowboys and

811
00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:06,720
indians all over again

812
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:10,240
he loved being out in the field he loved

813
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:14,159
the interaction with actual eyewitnesses

814
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:17,679
that which he was not able

815
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:21,120
to experience himself he was living it

816
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:22,240
he was experiencing

817
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:25,600
it through others and he never

818
00:30:28,950 --> 00:30:28,000
tired of that and it was just wonderful

819
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:28,960
to see him

820
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:31,679
in those last years that he once again

821
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:34,320
was out in the field doing what he

822
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:37,520
really set the the model for the rest of

823
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:45,430
12 observations i got some feedback um

824
00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:47,039
so what you're going to have to do paul

825
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:48,720
is go into your

826
00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:50,159
actually you're going to have to jump

827
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:52,399
out of this room and then come back set

828
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:53,919
up your mic and come back in

829
00:30:58,389 --> 00:30:56,480
so just leave studio wait a minute you

830
00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:58,399
sound okay now go ahead try

831
00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:01,360
how's that sounds good now go ahead okay

832
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:02,320
it's the cover-up

833
00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:03,360
they're trying to they're trying to shut

834
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:06,799
us down they got me last time so they

835
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:07,360
sure did

836
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:10,080
boy he had set up 12 observatories

837
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:11,120
around the world

838
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:12,720
as part of the optical satellite

839
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:14,720
tracking program and actually started

840
00:31:18,310 --> 00:31:16,080
the first sort of citizen

841
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:18,320
scientist program so he was very used to

842
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:19,200
traveling

843
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:22,320
um and uh and our mutual friend calvin

844
00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:23,120
parker

845
00:31:27,269 --> 00:31:25,919
um yes told the story when when we were

846
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:27,279
on your show before martin which i

847
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:28,799
hadn't heard before

848
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:30,720
that he had his famous sighting in

849
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:34,000
pascagoula with charlie hickson in 1973

850
00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:36,240
and he got out of the police station at

851
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:38,640
around 11 30 p.m on a sunday night

852
00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:40,960
he and charlie show up to work which i

853
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:42,080
think is amazing

854
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:45,360
um at like 7 a.m the next day and my

855
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,080
father was

856
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,559
waiting in the human resource office to

857
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:50,320
talk to them

858
00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:52,720
and so alvin to this day doesn't know

859
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,480
how my father got there that

860
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,640
quickly i think he must have been on the

861
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:58,559
gulf coast on business

862
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:00,799
uh anyways but still it's kind of

863
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:02,880
amazing how quickly he got there but

864
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:05,440
he had you know he's a little czech boy

865
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:06,480
from chicago

866
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:09,600
who loved trains um and he loved

867
00:32:14,630 --> 00:32:12,880
traveling so the idea of going out into

868
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:14,640
the field like don said

869
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:18,480
and living vicariously through witnesses

870
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:19,200
eyes

871
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:21,600
on sight was not something he had to be

872
00:32:26,389 --> 00:32:24,080
armed twisted into

873
00:32:28,149 --> 00:32:26,399
so um i i did want to talk about father

874
00:32:31,110 --> 00:32:28,159
gill but before that um

875
00:32:33,029 --> 00:32:31,120
all this that we're talking about how

876
00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:33,039
was he getting his funding

877
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,159
at this point and through kufos did they

878
00:32:40,149 --> 00:32:38,480
have some funding

879
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:40,159
to do all this traveling they're talking

880
00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:42,159
about you know every four days is

881
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:43,919
somewhere else i mean that that takes

882
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:45,200
some money

883
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:47,120
i've never i've not often heard the word

884
00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:48,960
funding associated with kufos

885
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:52,240
so um i i think probably

886
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:54,000
partly from kufos but a lot of it was

887
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:56,080
just his own pocket or

888
00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:58,799
he would attach investigations to

889
00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:00,799
speaker trips where he was paid

890
00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:03,200
right wow exactly that's not exactly

891
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:05,120
what he did he would have a speaker fee

892
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:07,919
and connected as far as to some

893
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:08,799
additional work

894
00:33:12,549 --> 00:33:11,120
let me stay another day or two while i'm

895
00:33:14,789 --> 00:33:12,559
here that type of thing

896
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:14,799
and uh as far as the associates at

897
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:15,600
kunfos

898
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:17,840
yeah we we have the international ufo

899
00:33:22,230 --> 00:33:20,080
reporters so they became associates

900
00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:22,240
so there it wasn't a membership as much

901
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:25,600
as it was uh where they contributed

902
00:33:31,190 --> 00:33:29,200
to the to the the field in that regard

903
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:31,200
and so whenever there was field work

904
00:33:35,669 --> 00:33:33,600
specifically involving dr heineck or

905
00:33:37,110 --> 00:33:35,679
our chief investigator at that time uh

906
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:37,120
alan hendry

907
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:39,600
that kufos often would cover the bill

908
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:40,799
but more times than not

909
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:42,559
just like as paul knows the

910
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:44,159
investigators it was all

911
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:46,640
you know out of pocket and uh we

912
00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:48,880
realized it wasn't uh sending our

913
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:51,440
our receipts our our check stubs or

914
00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:53,039
anything as far as to the office for

915
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:54,080
reimbursement

916
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:56,640
it was it was truly a labor of love in

917
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:57,519
that regard

918
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:00,720
and uh we also wanted to make ellen

919
00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:03,440
dr heineck proud and that was another uh

920
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:04,559
inspiration

921
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:08,000
in getting the job done ah wow

922
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:10,800
wow that's amazing um so paul i'm going

923
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:12,560
to ask you this question

924
00:34:18,790 --> 00:34:15,839
as far as project blue book the series

925
00:34:20,629 --> 00:34:18,800
you know there was a um not as many

926
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:20,639
people complaining about it

927
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:23,839
the first year as the second year and

928
00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:26,639
what the people who were complaining i

929
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:28,560
want to say were the people in the ufo

930
00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:29,200
field

931
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:31,679
and the reason they were complaining was

932
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:32,240
because

933
00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:35,599
they were um they're they weren't liking

934
00:34:40,069 --> 00:34:38,240
how much fiction that was involved um

935
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:40,079
and i know you had a lot of input

936
00:34:44,069 --> 00:34:41,839
what were your thoughts about the the

937
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:44,079
last season i understand they're not uh

938
00:34:49,349 --> 00:34:47,440
there's no season three at this point

939
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:49,359
yeah there was um you know it's an

940
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:50,960
interesting premise to start

941
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:53,839
with real people and largely real let's

942
00:34:59,109 --> 00:34:55,679
say reported events

943
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:59,119
and and visualize things that you don't

944
00:35:02,550 --> 00:35:00,880
really see when you read a typewritten

945
00:35:06,870 --> 00:35:02,560
report and then yeah

946
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:06,880
add on another layer of dramatization um

947
00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:08,960
you know my family we had a lot of

948
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,000
discussions about

949
00:35:14,790 --> 00:35:12,400
should my brother joel and i be

950
00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:14,800
consultants on the show as we were

951
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:16,800
and we decided look this show was going

952
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:18,880
to happen with or without us

953
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:20,480
we might as well be involved kind of

954
00:35:25,109 --> 00:35:21,920
like my father was with

955
00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:25,119
project blue book and not control

956
00:35:29,670 --> 00:35:27,599
but try to influence it in a direction

957
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:29,680
that we thought was not necessarily

958
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:33,040
risk you know uh good for my

959
00:35:36,470 --> 00:35:34,560
father and mother but accurate that's

960
00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:36,480
all we wanted and so

961
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:38,720
um i was we were happy with the show and

962
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:40,079
the idea was

963
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:41,920
that they would portray through

964
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:44,000
fantastic performances by aidan gillen

965
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:45,359
and laura menela's

966
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:48,880
tv mom and tb dad that um

967
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:50,880
they would sort of represent the

968
00:35:55,349 --> 00:35:52,240
authentic

969
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:55,359
parts of my parents not necessarily

970
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:56,240
accurate

971
00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:58,960
so that you put the sort of authentic

972
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:00,640
kernels of these characters

973
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:03,839
in these stretched circumstances

974
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:06,160
and they will react more or less as my

975
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:07,839
parents would have done in real life

976
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:10,720
had they confronted you know werner von

977
00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:11,200
braun's

978
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:14,000
teleporting ship or aliens and and water

979
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:14,880
and all that

980
00:36:19,829 --> 00:36:18,000
um and you know people would complain

981
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:19,839
largely in the ufo community oh they

982
00:36:22,790 --> 00:36:21,040
didn't get the dorman

983
00:36:24,150 --> 00:36:22,800
the gorman dogfight right they banked

984
00:36:26,150 --> 00:36:24,160
left when they banked and they should

985
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:26,160
have banked right

986
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:29,119
those details are lost on 99 of the

987
00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:31,200
viewing public who don't know any of the

988
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:32,000
cases

989
00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:34,640
and you know the creative element behind

990
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:35,839
the show

991
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:39,040
were huge ufo buffs sean jablonski their

992
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:41,200
showrunner david o'leary the creator

993
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:43,119
uh arturo and terry the first network

994
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:44,880
exec and the cast were

995
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:47,280
very much interested in ufos and wanted

996
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:49,280
to present the phenomena in a respectful

997
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:50,240
way

998
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:51,839
and the interesting thing about a work

999
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:54,000
like this that contains uh

1000
00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:56,560
elements of fiction it kind of opens up

1001
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:57,520
the tent

1002
00:37:00,790 --> 00:36:59,119
for a larger discussion kind of like

1003
00:37:02,069 --> 00:37:00,800
close encounters the movie did back in

1004
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:02,079
its day

1005
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:05,040
because you know books and documentaries

1006
00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:06,720
about ufos

1007
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:09,040
aren't always bringing in new people but

1008
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:10,400
a work of fiction

1009
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:12,160
people can come for the adventure and

1010
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:13,839
stay for the ufos

1011
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:15,920
and i think it like the movie close

1012
00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:17,440
encounters and i think now

1013
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:19,760
project blue book have made more people

1014
00:37:23,750 --> 00:37:21,200
feel comfortable

1015
00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:23,760
talking about these extraordinary and

1016
00:37:26,069 --> 00:37:25,520
often traumatic experiences that they

1017
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:26,079
had

1018
00:37:31,829 --> 00:37:29,520
so we were happy with the show um

1019
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:31,839
and for me one of the more more resonant

1020
00:37:36,310 --> 00:37:33,040
parts was

1021
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:36,320
in season six of episode 2

1022
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:43,510
about coke encounters so i have a cameo

1023
00:37:47,270 --> 00:37:46,160
in the show about my father in the

1024
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:47,280
episode

1025
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:49,520
about the movie based on my father's

1026
00:37:55,589 --> 00:37:52,720
work in which he had a cameo

1027
00:37:56,950 --> 00:37:55,599
okay and that's season six you say yeah

1028
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:56,960
so if you watch it

1029
00:38:02,950 --> 00:38:00,320
uh episode six of season two oh

1030
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,960
i got it see as tv mom and tv dad are

1031
00:38:07,990 --> 00:38:04,400
walking to the camera

1032
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:08,000
is this roguishly handsome cameraman

1033
00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:10,160
being lifted up in a crane and i kind of

1034
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,560
stole the scene by how well i sat there

1035
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:14,400
i think

1036
00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:17,359
i'll i'll have to catch that wow well

1037
00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:18,240
that's uh

1038
00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:20,000
i wanted to say that's probably the best

1039
00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:21,520
explanation i've

1040
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:24,880
heard in not so much defending

1041
00:38:30,390 --> 00:38:28,000
the series but explaining

1042
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:30,400
not only what the creative license that

1043
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:31,599
hollywood

1044
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:34,720
is you know is is so proficient

1045
00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:37,440
in demonstrating but that it also served

1046
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:39,359
the ufo community

1047
00:38:45,270 --> 00:38:43,200
quite well by again appealing to it by

1048
00:38:48,150 --> 00:38:45,280
attracting a whole new audience

1049
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:48,160
i think too many people within the field

1050
00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:48,880
are

1051
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:51,040
just so complacent and just accepting

1052
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:51,920
that well

1053
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:53,920
it's just a set number that we have to

1054
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:54,960
appeal to

1055
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:58,400
and we have to win over and i was beyond

1056
00:39:02,069 --> 00:38:58,800
that

1057
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:02,079
you know 20 years ago you know i said we

1058
00:39:05,109 --> 00:39:04,000
we're beyond preaching to the choir so

1059
00:39:08,069 --> 00:39:05,119
to speak but

1060
00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:08,079
i wanted to ask there has been or there

1061
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:10,720
had been a bit of a ground swell

1062
00:39:14,069 --> 00:39:12,960
movement as far as and a push to

1063
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:14,079
potentially bring it

1064
00:39:17,829 --> 00:39:17,359
back on another uh cable channel or

1065
00:39:19,990 --> 00:39:17,839
something

1066
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:20,000
is that still in the works or without

1067
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:21,359
revealing anything

1068
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:24,560
is this something that's still possible

1069
00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:26,560
um i think it is still possible and

1070
00:39:30,310 --> 00:39:28,240
there's interest in that it's a

1071
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:30,320
challenging environment now with kovid

1072
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:31,520
to um

1073
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:34,160
sort of reboot production on any network

1074
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:34,880
so

1075
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:37,680
i don't know of the latest um i'm still

1076
00:39:42,310 --> 00:39:39,359
in touch with the folks there but

1077
00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:42,320
i haven't heard any news uh recently i

1078
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:43,760
spoke with dave o'leary

1079
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:46,560
um i don't know maybe a month ago and he

1080
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,400
said you know they were trying

1081
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:50,240
and he said the exact same thing about

1082
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:52,800
covet and and i don't even know how you

1083
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:54,160
would actually film

1084
00:39:57,349 --> 00:39:56,400
you know something new uh well during

1085
00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:57,359
these times

1086
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:58,880
you know what what you do is you do a

1087
00:40:01,510 --> 00:40:00,640
sort of quarantine you you take all the

1088
00:40:03,990 --> 00:40:01,520
cast

1089
00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:04,000
you get them all tested um you have them

1090
00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:05,359
all quarantined

1091
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,800
for a couple weeks and then you start

1092
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:08,880
production on a closed set

1093
00:40:15,829 --> 00:40:12,560
i see it's not an easy thing to do right

1094
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:15,839
it certainly increases the expense yes

1095
00:40:22,829 --> 00:40:18,640
yeah right uh here come the turkeys

1096
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:26,309
um

1097
00:40:33,750 --> 00:40:30,720
you both

1098
00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:33,760
um were connected to such an amazing man

1099
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:34,640
and

1100
00:40:41,589 --> 00:40:40,000
the time i know you were

1101
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:41,599
um eight or nine years old something

1102
00:40:44,069 --> 00:40:43,520
like that when project blue book

1103
00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:44,079
actually

1104
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:46,160
you know the rail project blue book uh

1105
00:40:50,309 --> 00:40:47,280
shut down

1106
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:50,319
and and when that happened what was the

1107
00:40:55,349 --> 00:40:51,680
reaction like

1108
00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:58,870
um well

1109
00:41:02,150 --> 00:41:00,000
you know the writing had been on the

1110
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:02,160
wall for a long time and

1111
00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:05,520
um the condom committee

1112
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:07,359
you know the military has a lot of

1113
00:41:10,950 --> 00:41:08,560
deference for

1114
00:41:13,109 --> 00:41:10,960
academic community and they try to sort

1115
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:13,119
of shield themselves from blow back

1116
00:41:17,109 --> 00:41:14,800
by saying this or that professor did

1117
00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:17,119
something now for anybody who's read the

1118
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:19,200
condon committee report which was the

1119
00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:22,480
official pretext in 1969 to shut down

1120
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:23,760
project blue book

1121
00:41:29,589 --> 00:41:26,880
it's a startling document because the

1122
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:29,599
conclusions do not jibe with the

1123
00:41:34,309 --> 00:41:31,599
evidence in the report itself

1124
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:34,319
so it is not it is a piece of scientific

1125
00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:35,599
dishonesty

1126
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:38,880
of the highest degree so my father knew

1127
00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:40,079
full well

1128
00:41:44,309 --> 00:41:43,040
that it was winding to a close and he

1129
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:44,319
was sort of preparing

1130
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:46,640
as don talked about to be able to use

1131
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,280
that data and while he was there

1132
00:41:52,470 --> 00:41:51,520
you know he was able to influence

1133
00:41:54,069 --> 00:41:52,480
somewhat

1134
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:54,079
the cases that they investigated but

1135
00:41:56,950 --> 00:41:56,560
also somewhat how they investigated them

1136
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:56,960
but

1137
00:42:01,349 --> 00:41:59,119
have sort of a first row seat to all the

1138
00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:01,359
cases so when it shut down there's no

1139
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:02,640
great surprise

1140
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:05,280
and you know just four years later uh my

1141
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:07,119
dad and others formed the center for ufo

1142
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:09,200
studies to go at it in a much more

1143
00:42:16,309 --> 00:42:15,670
really really interesting um let's say

1144
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:16,319
we had

1145
00:42:20,710 --> 00:42:19,280
uh someone that actually sent me a text

1146
00:42:24,069 --> 00:42:20,720
and he wanted to know

1147
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:24,079
um how the money trail could identify

1148
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:26,400
hidden ufo research programs

1149
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:28,800
is it do do either one of you have any

1150
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:33,349
well i could give quickly give the

1151
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:35,359
example of

1152
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:38,160
the accountant who was at the roswell

1153
00:42:44,230 --> 00:42:39,920
army airfield

1154
00:42:47,349 --> 00:42:44,240
in 1947 and when he was interviewed and

1155
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:47,359
he was able to recollect he

1156
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:51,040
he was quite uh

1157
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:53,200
vocal about the fact that for the

1158
00:42:57,670 --> 00:42:54,800
recovery of a just

1159
00:42:58,150 --> 00:42:57,680
simple weather balloon device they sure

1160
00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:58,160
spent

1161
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:01,760
a lot of money back at that time

1162
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:03,839
that it appeared to him as though it was

1163
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:06,400
a full-blown operation

1164
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:10,480
of of a scope close to that of you know

1165
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:13,280
a errant atomic bomb you know detonation

1166
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:14,720
that type of thing

1167
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:17,920
and so when you make a good point we've

1168
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:18,800
had other

1169
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:21,200
we've had witnesses for example suggest

1170
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:22,720
that well

1171
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:25,680
check back to the local police and fire

1172
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:26,560
department

1173
00:43:30,630 --> 00:43:29,599
and you'll see that they were called out

1174
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:30,640
or that they

1175
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:32,640
there was an immediate increase as far

1176
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:34,480
as expenses

1177
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:37,920
as a result of an investigation of

1178
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:39,680
something that the air force may have

1179
00:43:44,309 --> 00:43:40,960
pooh-poohed they

1180
00:43:47,589 --> 00:43:44,319
may have denied even happened so

1181
00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:47,599
it uh it it at least demonstrates a a

1182
00:43:52,309 --> 00:43:49,280
money trail

1183
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:52,319
it's a question of what the expenses uh

1184
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:52,960
you know

1185
00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:55,920
accrued towards uh and if it was the

1186
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:57,280
actual ufo

1187
00:44:01,910 --> 00:43:59,599
uh incident or not but in the case of

1188
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:01,920
roswell yes the account at the roswell

1189
00:44:05,829 --> 00:44:03,040
army airfield

1190
00:44:07,270 --> 00:44:05,839
said that uh there was a tremendous

1191
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:07,280
expense that

1192
00:44:12,390 --> 00:44:10,800
that that expenses went up tremendously

1193
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:12,400
during that week of the recovery

1194
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:14,000
operation and

1195
00:44:19,349 --> 00:44:16,240
it hardly uh would reflect the recovery

1196
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:19,359
of just a alone weather balloon device

1197
00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:22,560
wow that's interesting um i'm going to

1198
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:23,440
ask

1199
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,920
uh both of you maybe whether you'll

1200
00:44:30,550 --> 00:44:27,200
agree on this

1201
00:44:31,349 --> 00:44:30,560
uh question or not but right off the bat

1202
00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:31,359
polishing

1203
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:38,550
what do you think um j alan hynix

1204
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:41,760
uh the case uh

1205
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:49,510
um i don't know which uh one do you want

1206
00:44:53,829 --> 00:44:50,720
to uh

1207
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:53,839
talk about that first well as long as

1208
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:54,880
paul's thinking i

1209
00:44:57,990 --> 00:44:56,640
i think i'll just jump in and say well

1210
00:45:03,589 --> 00:44:58,000
don you got time

1211
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:03,599
it was the socorro new mexico in 1964.

1212
00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:06,319
and even the air force report in

1213
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:08,560
referring to it as a vehicle

1214
00:45:15,589 --> 00:45:12,480
they weren't denying it was a physical

1215
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:15,599
piece of hardware that touched down

1216
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:18,640
to the south uh west of socorro at that

1217
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:19,680
time

1218
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:22,960
and paul's dad was immediately

1219
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:25,040
you know assigned to the case by the air

1220
00:45:29,589 --> 00:45:26,400
force

1221
00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:29,599
and his his

1222
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:31,760
allen heineck even talking about by the

1223
00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:33,280
time he arrived that this

1224
00:45:37,030 --> 00:45:35,599
the sage that the brush where the object

1225
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:37,040
had touched down

1226
00:45:40,150 --> 00:45:38,720
you could still feel the heat it was

1227
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:40,160
still there

1228
00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:43,920
the depression's in the ground and um

1229
00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:48,079
it was a case that affected him

1230
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:50,560
so profoundly that i think it was a

1231
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:51,520
final straw

1232
00:45:55,109 --> 00:45:53,760
it was like now how do you explain this

1233
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:55,119
away and alan

1234
00:46:01,510 --> 00:45:58,400
would talk about that he for example

1235
00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:01,520
he tried all he could he pulled out

1236
00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:05,119
all stops in trying to explain socorro

1237
00:46:08,950 --> 00:46:07,839
prosaically conventionally and he

1238
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:08,960
couldn't

1239
00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:12,400
and neither could the air force uh

1240
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:14,880
major hector quintonella was the last

1241
00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:16,640
director of project blue book at that

1242
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:17,359
time

1243
00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:20,079
and and and and alan heineck would tell

1244
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:22,480
us that he was a nasty officer

1245
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:25,440
and he was because he would go out of

1246
00:46:29,109 --> 00:46:26,720
his way

1247
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:29,119
to not only discredit the witnesses but

1248
00:46:33,910 --> 00:46:30,720
humiliate them

1249
00:46:34,390 --> 00:46:33,920
um disgra you know make them feel as

1250
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:34,400
though

1251
00:46:38,470 --> 00:46:37,200
that they were wasting his time by even

1252
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,480
making a report

1253
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:40,480
but even quit the mello couldn't explain

1254
00:46:44,550 --> 00:46:41,520
a waste of court

1255
00:46:46,470 --> 00:46:44,560
as much as he tried so i think

1256
00:46:48,230 --> 00:46:46,480
that what i observed personally and then

1257
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:48,240
what allen would talk to us about

1258
00:46:52,710 --> 00:46:50,400
afterwards that it was socorro

1259
00:46:54,630 --> 00:46:52,720
that finally you know was that that

1260
00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:54,640
linchpin that pulled him over from the

1261
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:56,240
dark side yeah

1262
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:58,319
i'll second that and as i see that uh

1263
00:47:01,510 --> 00:46:59,599
tim chan

1264
00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:01,520
mentioned in the chat room which is ably

1265
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:02,720
moderated by dave

1266
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:05,839
altman um uh my father had a lot of

1267
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:07,440
credibility or felt that

1268
00:47:10,870 --> 00:47:09,119
lonnie zamora was a very credible

1269
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:10,880
witness

1270
00:47:15,349 --> 00:47:12,720
and that attitude he's just very salt of

1271
00:47:17,829 --> 00:47:15,359
the earth police guy

1272
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:17,839
who wasn't looking for this didn't seek

1273
00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:18,480
to benefit

1274
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:20,720
from it afterwards and was truly

1275
00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:23,520
traumatized but still had that sort of

1276
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:26,960
military bearing of being able to

1277
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:30,160
recount the affair

1278
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:32,960
yes in fact right after the incident

1279
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:33,920
happened

1280
00:47:38,950 --> 00:47:36,480
which is seldom reported the very first

1281
00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:38,960
place that lonnie zamora went

1282
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:41,119
was to his parish priest he went to

1283
00:47:44,309 --> 00:47:42,000
church

1284
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:44,319
because he felt he had observed he had

1285
00:47:49,190 --> 00:47:46,160
witnessed something demonic

1286
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,200
that it was so unearthly that

1287
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:51,119
he felt that maybe it was spiritual in

1288
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:52,960
nature well

1289
00:47:56,069 --> 00:47:55,119
going back and the footprints in the in

1290
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:56,079
the sand

1291
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:58,000
the landing depressions that type of

1292
00:48:01,349 --> 00:47:59,359
thing convinced him

1293
00:48:03,270 --> 00:48:01,359
otherwise shortly thereafter but

1294
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:03,280
nonetheless it was something that

1295
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:06,800
truly you know affected him as far as on

1296
00:48:11,990 --> 00:48:08,960
that spiritual level yes

1297
00:48:13,589 --> 00:48:12,000
uh one thing i want to say um let me

1298
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:13,599
just uh let's see do this

1299
00:48:17,109 --> 00:48:15,440
one thing i wanted to say i know you

1300
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:17,119
can't see me i i look like i'm in the

1301
00:48:23,109 --> 00:48:18,319
witness protection

1302
00:48:30,150 --> 00:48:26,710
um when uh when

1303
00:48:33,190 --> 00:48:30,160
your father was there or jl heineck uh

1304
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:33,200
john when he was there at uh with lonnie

1305
00:48:37,829 --> 00:48:34,559
zamora

1306
00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:37,839
supposedly he actually saw the rock uh

1307
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:40,000
it was lonnie who first saw the rock

1308
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:41,599
that had a scrape on it

1309
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:45,280
with the metal on it and the question is

1310
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:48,559
why didn't your dad want to pick up that

1311
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:50,240
rock and take that rock and have it

1312
00:48:54,069 --> 00:48:52,400
analyzed

1313
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:54,079
did you ever did you ever hear about

1314
00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:55,760
that i mean he actually

1315
00:48:59,030 --> 00:48:58,079
uh supposedly it was jay i mean lonnie

1316
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:59,040
zamora that

1317
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:00,640
said the rock over there has a scrape on

1318
00:49:05,589 --> 00:49:03,599
it with metal

1319
00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:05,599
and your your father supposedly

1320
00:49:09,030 --> 00:49:06,640
commented

1321
00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:09,040
something along the lines i i see yeah

1322
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:10,559
you're right or something like that but

1323
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:11,520
they didn't

1324
00:49:20,549 --> 00:49:17,440
hear anything about that

1325
00:49:21,190 --> 00:49:20,559
and and i did in fact even uh the late

1326
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:21,200
uh

1327
00:49:34,470 --> 00:49:31,440
of kovit actually you know

1328
00:49:36,630 --> 00:49:34,480
so uh the report is yes uh

1329
00:49:38,150 --> 00:49:36,640
she had talked about the rock that lania

1330
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:38,160
talked about the rock

1331
00:49:41,190 --> 00:49:40,480
and uh there was even a search at the

1332
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:41,200
zamora

1333
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:44,319
home at one point still looking for a

1334
00:49:49,030 --> 00:49:45,359
fragment of the

1335
00:49:49,349 --> 00:49:49,040
rock that may have had uh remnants of

1336
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:49,359
that

1337
00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:56,000
not foul not discovered but one thing we

1338
00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:58,319
have to keep in mind

1339
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:01,359
alan heineck was still the

1340
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:03,520
consultant to the project blue book he

1341
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:05,920
was there on assignment for a blue book

1342
00:50:11,910 --> 00:50:10,079
he was at their beck and call in fact

1343
00:50:13,990 --> 00:50:11,920
one of the things that one of the police

1344
00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:14,000
officers would describe

1345
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:17,119
how everybody arriving on the scene of

1346
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:18,400
the landing

1347
00:50:25,270 --> 00:50:22,160
they totally obliterated the footprints

1348
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:25,280
that had that were there wow the child

1349
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:28,160
size you know the two beings that were

1350
00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:29,920
seen in conjunction with this

1351
00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:32,640
egg-shaped craft that was was standing

1352
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:33,599
there

1353
00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:35,760
and i've had i've had witnesses since

1354
00:50:41,109 --> 00:50:38,319
then sketched me what they saw

1355
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:41,119
as to the size that they were footprints

1356
00:50:44,790 --> 00:50:42,400
the size of a

1357
00:50:45,589 --> 00:50:44,800
10 year old you know child that type of

1358
00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:45,599
thing

1359
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:48,640
but totally obliterated again by all

1360
00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:50,079
these amateurs who

1361
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:53,599
were not part of the investigation well

1362
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:56,640
these pictures that were taken and

1363
00:51:00,150 --> 00:50:59,200
the sketches that were done and when you

1364
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:00,160
would talk to

1365
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:02,800
the reporters some of the people who

1366
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:04,079
were involved

1367
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:06,480
family members of the police officers

1368
00:51:10,390 --> 00:51:07,200
who were

1369
00:51:12,549 --> 00:51:10,400
called in to see what had this fantastic

1370
00:51:15,030 --> 00:51:12,559
event that just took place

1371
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:15,040
and when i would ask well where did

1372
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:16,480
everything go

1373
00:51:19,589 --> 00:51:18,800
where did all the pictures where did the

1374
00:51:22,309 --> 00:51:19,599
film

1375
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:22,319
where did the drawings all go well they

1376
00:51:27,589 --> 00:51:24,400
were all confiscated i would be told

1377
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:27,599
and the one person they said who went to

1378
00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:28,640
the newspaper

1379
00:51:34,150 --> 00:51:31,839
who went to the eyewitnesses and

1380
00:51:36,630 --> 00:51:34,160
grabbed everything while they still

1381
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:36,640
could and i'm told the same person over

1382
00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:38,160
and over again

1383
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:41,359
was jl and heinek that heinek

1384
00:51:45,589 --> 00:51:44,800
was instructed by the officers with blue

1385
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:45,599
book

1386
00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:49,680
to gather up every piece of testimony

1387
00:51:52,870 --> 00:51:50,640
every photograph

1388
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:52,880
every drawing he could while they were

1389
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:54,160
still there

1390
00:51:58,790 --> 00:51:57,760
and i'm sure days weeks and years later

1391
00:52:01,670 --> 00:51:58,800
alan heineck

1392
00:52:03,510 --> 00:52:01,680
often would think to himself boy i

1393
00:52:06,309 --> 00:52:03,520
should have made copies or i should have

1394
00:52:08,710 --> 00:52:06,319
stuck a few things in my pockets

1395
00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:08,720
because he was a good for not being

1396
00:52:14,790 --> 00:52:10,319
military he was still

1397
00:52:16,309 --> 00:52:14,800
a good soldier working for the military

1398
00:52:18,309 --> 00:52:16,319
yeah we have to go to break in about

1399
00:52:21,349 --> 00:52:18,319
three minutes from now but

1400
00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:21,359
one of the um questions that comes up a

1401
00:52:25,589 --> 00:52:23,040
lot when it comes to

1402
00:52:26,390 --> 00:52:25,599
this particular case the socorro

1403
00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:26,400
incident

1404
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:30,319
is that it was possibly ours you know

1405
00:52:37,670 --> 00:52:36,950
don you're on a roll well well but

1406
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:37,680
quickly it

1407
00:52:42,150 --> 00:52:39,760
it does not account for the fact that

1408
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:42,160
there was another sighting the very next

1409
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:42,720
night

1410
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:45,599
in la madera it doesn't account for the

1411
00:52:48,790 --> 00:52:46,880
fact that there were sightings

1412
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:48,800
throughout new mexico

1413
00:52:55,349 --> 00:52:52,400
describing almost a similar shaped craft

1414
00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:55,359
during that entire week it's just that

1415
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:56,400
the socorro

1416
00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:59,359
one received garnered all the publicity

1417
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:00,960
all the attention

1418
00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:04,319
this notion that it was a lunar module

1419
00:53:08,069 --> 00:53:07,119
the lamb or that it was even a stage

1420
00:53:11,030 --> 00:53:08,079
prank

1421
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:11,040
by students at the mining you know

1422
00:53:16,549 --> 00:53:13,520
university in socorro at that time

1423
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:16,559
just again it's grasping at straws yeah

1424
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:17,280
that's for sure

1425
00:53:21,510 --> 00:53:20,240
to keep in mind that the air force and

1426
00:53:23,109 --> 00:53:21,520
hector quintonella

1427
00:53:25,109 --> 00:53:23,119
for everything they did to try to

1428
00:53:28,630 --> 00:53:25,119
explain this away they could not

1429
00:53:31,270 --> 00:53:28,640
and that dr heineck went out of his way

1430
00:53:32,630 --> 00:53:31,280
because he didn't want this to be a

1431
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:32,640
legitimate case

1432
00:53:36,309 --> 00:53:34,720
because he wanted to once again prove

1433
00:53:39,910 --> 00:53:36,319
that if you investigate

1434
00:53:42,230 --> 00:53:39,920
anything to the 11th degree

1435
00:53:44,549 --> 00:53:42,240
if you have enough data you can come up

1436
00:53:46,870 --> 00:53:44,559
with a solid conventional explanation

1437
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:46,880
no one could and that's the point to

1438
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:48,000
this day

1439
00:53:52,150 --> 00:53:50,559
sequoia new mexico stands at one of the

1440
00:53:54,710 --> 00:53:52,160
best ufo cases

1441
00:53:56,150 --> 00:53:54,720
in the united states of all time yeah i

1442
00:53:58,470 --> 00:53:56,160
agree and one of the things that

1443
00:53:59,430 --> 00:53:58,480
you know people that that are

1444
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:59,440
questioning that

1445
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:01,200
uh as a par you know saying that as a

1446
00:54:07,349 --> 00:54:04,000
possibility they don't keep in mind

1447
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:07,359
is that the figures that lonnie

1448
00:54:12,950 --> 00:54:10,960
supposedly saw were so tiny diminutive

1449
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:12,960
and you know they're not going to have

1450
00:54:17,430 --> 00:54:14,000
um someone

1451
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:17,440
handling a craft that is you know

1452
00:54:20,470 --> 00:54:19,599
a child so to speak i mean they look the

1453
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:20,480
size of a

1454
00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:22,160
10 year old child or something like that

1455
00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:24,160
if i have it right exactly

1456
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:26,800
and that's just not going to happen so

1457
00:54:30,790 --> 00:54:28,240
yeah i think that is

1458
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:30,800
um definitely i i always say that's one

1459
00:54:37,589 --> 00:54:31,839
of my top

1460
00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:37,599
is definitely the socorro case it's just

1461
00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:39,040
and you'd have a lot of agreement

1462
00:54:42,789 --> 00:54:41,359
throughout the ufo community on that one

1463
00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:42,799
of the top 10

1464
00:54:46,549 --> 00:54:45,680
top five cases of all time yeah and ray

1465
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:46,559
stanford

1466
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:48,799
uh wrote a beautiful book on that did a

1467
00:54:53,750 --> 00:54:50,319
very good job on that

1468
00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:53,760
um i still have that in my library so

1469
00:54:57,589 --> 00:54:56,480
anyway um we are ready to go into break

1470
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:57,599
and so hang in

1471
00:55:02,950 --> 00:55:01,119
there everyone um over at kgr a radio

1472
00:55:04,710 --> 00:55:02,960
uh we're gonna be back right after these

1473
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:04,720
messages and for you those of you on

1474
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:06,400
youtube i got a special treat and here

1475
00:55:08,549 --> 00:55:07,040
it is

1476
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:08,559
there was a time when people would cite

1477
00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:10,079
flying saucers and wherever they made

1478
00:55:13,589 --> 00:55:11,520
reports they were sometimes treated a

1479
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:13,599
ridicule or called wackos or crazy

1480
00:55:17,349 --> 00:55:14,079
people

1481
00:55:19,109 --> 00:55:17,359
trying to do is present a form where

1482
00:55:19,750 --> 00:55:19,119
people can present the most unusual

1483
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:19,760
sightings

1484
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:21,119
and have them treated with dignity and

1485
00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:22,400
without fear of being ridiculed would

1486
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:23,280
you please welcome

1487
00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:24,960
uh from the center for the from the

1488
00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:26,559
center of ufo studies in evanston

1489
00:55:36,309 --> 00:55:35,349
when you first get a when you first get

1490
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:36,319
a report

1491
00:55:41,349 --> 00:55:39,280
of a sighting is your job to assemble

1492
00:55:43,270 --> 00:55:41,359
evidence that will prove it to be so

1493
00:55:44,549 --> 00:55:43,280
or to assemble evidence to prove that it

1494
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:44,559
did not happen you know there are two

1495
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,400
ways to go on any investigation the

1496
00:55:49,109 --> 00:55:48,400
first thing we do is to try to disprove

1497
00:55:50,789 --> 00:55:49,119
it

1498
00:55:52,230 --> 00:55:50,799
because what is the point of

1499
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:52,240
establishing of

1500
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:54,960
perpetuating a myth or that isn't so and

1501
00:56:00,789 --> 00:55:56,880
it turns out that some 90

1502
00:56:02,870 --> 00:56:00,799
of the raw reports we have a nationwide

1503
00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:02,880
police network an 800 number that the

1504
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:04,160
police use

1505
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:06,799
and we get reports every night from

1506
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:08,000
police departments or

1507
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:10,000
different parts of the country most of

1508
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:11,599
them are

1509
00:56:15,910 --> 00:56:15,040
planets twinkling stars explainable or

1510
00:56:17,670 --> 00:56:15,920
identifiable

1511
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:17,680
ifos we call them identify with flying

1512
00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:19,520
objects but that remaining 10

1513
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:21,680
those are the ones we go after now a ufo

1514
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:23,280
the human ufo of course simply means

1515
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:25,119
unidentified it does not necessarily

1516
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:25,680
mean

1517
00:56:31,510 --> 00:56:29,359
visitors from outer space but

1518
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:31,520
it must be unidentified not just to the

1519
00:56:34,549 --> 00:56:32,480
person who

1520
00:56:36,549 --> 00:56:34,559
is puzzled by it but it must remain

1521
00:56:38,309 --> 00:56:36,559
unidentified

1522
00:56:40,309 --> 00:56:38,319
after considerable study then and only

1523
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:40,319
then is it a ufo

1524
00:56:42,789 --> 00:56:41,839
what are you investigating right now

1525
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:42,799
what have been some things that have

1526
00:56:45,190 --> 00:56:43,920
come up in the last couple of months

1527
00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:45,200
that you're looking into

1528
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:47,119
well we have a very interesting case uh

1529
00:56:51,270 --> 00:56:48,480
just in

1530
00:56:52,470 --> 00:56:51,280
muscatine iowa just comes to mind uh

1531
00:56:54,950 --> 00:56:52,480
sometimes you know

1532
00:56:56,630 --> 00:56:54,960
animals are the first things to give a

1533
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:56,640
warning that something something strange

1534
00:56:58,950 --> 00:56:57,119
is

1535
00:57:00,390 --> 00:56:58,960
any time for in california for example

1536
00:57:02,069 --> 00:57:00,400
before an earthquake the animal kingdom

1537
00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:02,079
is aware of it long before we are they

1538
00:57:06,309 --> 00:57:05,440
do have two things now uh we had a

1539
00:57:08,150 --> 00:57:06,319
letter from a chap

1540
00:57:09,910 --> 00:57:08,160
saying that uh what first called my

1541
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:09,920
attention to something going on was the

1542
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:11,280
fuss of the horses were raising in the

1543
00:57:14,870 --> 00:57:13,200
barn but this time it's rabbits

1544
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:14,880
there is a rather interesting story

1545
00:57:18,470 --> 00:57:16,400
there is a chap that

1546
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:18,480
runs a toll gate at muscatine iowa

1547
00:57:22,150 --> 00:57:19,760
across the river there

1548
00:57:23,589 --> 00:57:22,160
and he runs from the 11 pm to 7 a.m

1549
00:57:25,589 --> 00:57:23,599
shifts we all like to okay

1550
00:57:27,190 --> 00:57:25,599
yeah and about 3 o'clock in the morning

1551
00:57:27,990 --> 00:57:27,200
it has been his custom for quite a while

1552
00:57:29,910 --> 00:57:28,000
to feed the

1553
00:57:31,349 --> 00:57:29,920
the wild rabbits he takes carrots and

1554
00:57:32,789 --> 00:57:31,359
tosses them out and the rabbits grab a

1555
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:32,799
carrot and dash off

1556
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:35,280
at this time at 10 minutes to three he

1557
00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:36,240
goes out there and

1558
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:38,160
the rabbits are just lying flat and

1559
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:39,599
immobile on the

1560
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:42,160
cement just absolutely not dead okay but

1561
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:42,640
just

1562
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:45,040
as though they were petrified paralyzed

1563
00:57:47,510 --> 00:57:46,880
and simultaneously as soon as he sees

1564
00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:47,520
that he

1565
00:57:50,549 --> 00:57:49,680
hears a humming sound loud humming sound

1566
00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:50,559
and

1567
00:57:56,789 --> 00:57:54,000
a large yellow object rises

1568
00:57:57,510 --> 00:57:56,799
from across the river and comes across

1569
00:57:58,789 --> 00:57:57,520
and

1570
00:58:00,150 --> 00:57:58,799
the whole thing lasted for some six

1571
00:58:01,109 --> 00:58:00,160
minutes as soon as it was gone the

1572
00:58:03,430 --> 00:58:01,119
gravits

1573
00:58:05,030 --> 00:58:03,440
jumped back to life and scurried off and

1574
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:05,040
also at the same time we're still

1575
00:58:08,230 --> 00:58:06,240
investigating

1576
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:08,240
there was a concomitant power outage in

1577
00:58:11,109 --> 00:58:09,599
muscatine now we don't know whether that

1578
00:58:12,470 --> 00:58:11,119
was had anything to do with the ufo or

1579
00:58:14,309 --> 00:58:12,480
not but it may have

1580
00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:14,319
usually there is some kind of a power

1581
00:58:16,950 --> 00:58:15,920
fluctuation or power so those are the

1582
00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:16,960
sorts of things that

1583
00:58:21,349 --> 00:58:19,920
we investigate right and but you have no

1584
00:58:25,510 --> 00:58:21,359
uh the jury's still out on this very

1585
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:28,069
well i i just love that clip we're we're

1586
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:29,920
live on youtube right now

1587
00:58:35,349 --> 00:58:33,040
um for the next uh um i don't know we

1588
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:35,359
got to say 45 seconds or something like

1589
00:58:38,150 --> 00:58:36,400
that and

1590
00:58:40,309 --> 00:58:38,160
uh bill will be uh letting us know when

1591
00:58:41,510 --> 00:58:40,319
we go back live but uh that's such an

1592
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:41,520
awesome clip i just wanted to say that

1593
00:58:45,670 --> 00:58:42,000
was uh

1594
00:58:47,829 --> 00:58:45,680
1979. yeah

1595
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:47,839
and and that was uh no i'm the show with

1596
00:58:51,910 --> 00:58:49,680
1979 with tom snyder

1597
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:51,920
uh tom was a neighbor of mine when i

1598
00:58:56,950 --> 00:58:53,920
lived in california real nice guy

1599
00:58:57,589 --> 00:58:56,960
but uh he loved uh jay allen heineck on

1600
00:58:59,109 --> 00:58:57,599
the show he

1601
00:59:01,750 --> 00:58:59,119
thought those were one of those better

1602
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:01,760
shows do you remember uh paul do you

1603
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:03,359
remember watching him as a kid when he

1604
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:04,000
was on tv

1605
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:07,920
shows yeah and wasn't he on uh

1606
00:59:11,190 --> 00:59:09,920
to tell the not to tell the truth but or

1607
00:59:13,349 --> 00:59:11,200
something like that yeah

1608
00:59:14,549 --> 00:59:13,359
to tell the truth yes all right

1609
00:59:16,150 --> 00:59:14,559
gentlemen we're i don't mean to

1610
00:59:16,630 --> 00:59:16,160
interrupt but we are coming back in

1611
00:59:18,950 --> 00:59:16,640
about

1612
00:59:20,789 --> 00:59:18,960
10 seconds that's fine you're supposed

1613
00:59:24,390 --> 00:59:20,799
to interrupt

1614
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:24,400
standby yeah okay um

1615
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:25,920
all right so we're ready to go live here

1616
00:59:32,309 --> 00:59:28,160
in just a sec here we go in three

1617
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:32,319
two one go all right i am back um

1618
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:34,880
with the two guests i have paul heineck

1619
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:35,599
and don

1620
00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:37,920
schmidt and we're having a good night

1621
00:59:42,630 --> 00:59:39,920
and i still look like i'm in the witness

1622
00:59:43,670 --> 00:59:42,640
protection program out here uh i believe

1623
00:59:46,230 --> 00:59:43,680
i do yes i do

1624
00:59:46,710 --> 00:59:46,240
yeah i was hoping the sun would kind of

1625
00:59:49,990 --> 00:59:46,720
go

1626
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:50,000
over this way and you know but it's

1627
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:50,960
working against me

1628
00:59:54,630 --> 00:59:52,640
tonight i'll have to keep that in mind

1629
00:59:55,430 --> 00:59:54,640
but no mosquitoes here in maine i can't

1630
00:59:57,829 --> 00:59:55,440
believe it

1631
00:59:59,349 --> 00:59:57,839
so i'm pretty i'm lucky so far we still

1632
01:00:01,030 --> 00:59:59,359
have an hour to go though

1633
01:00:03,270 --> 01:00:01,040
so and i just want to let you know in

1634
01:00:06,549 --> 01:00:03,280
the last half hour of the show

1635
01:00:08,710 --> 01:00:06,559
we are going to be taking calls so um

1636
01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:08,720
so that should be um interesting to say

1637
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:10,000
the least

1638
01:00:15,670 --> 01:00:13,280
so uh paul this question's for you um

1639
01:00:16,789 --> 01:00:15,680
you're you're you're growing up in this

1640
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:16,799
household

1641
01:00:24,390 --> 01:00:21,839
um and what what was a a day-to-day life

1642
01:00:25,430 --> 01:00:24,400
like now i heard someone say this and

1643
01:00:27,270 --> 01:00:25,440
correct me

1644
01:00:29,270 --> 01:00:27,280
if it's wrong i mean it probably is

1645
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:29,280
wrong but they said that mimi your

1646
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:31,280
mother had no interest in ufos

1647
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:35,200
is that oh that's categorically false

1648
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:38,799
that is now i i heard that

1649
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:41,520
um i heard that on a either a show or

1650
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:42,000
something

1651
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:44,240
but she actually had an interest oh yeah

1652
01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:45,200
more than an interest

1653
01:00:49,349 --> 01:00:47,599
you know don already mentioned that she

1654
01:00:50,630 --> 01:00:49,359
pretty much ran the center for ufo

1655
01:00:52,710 --> 01:00:50,640
studies for some time

1656
01:00:54,710 --> 01:00:52,720
and she was the editor of the

1657
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:54,720
international ufo reporter

1658
01:00:58,230 --> 01:00:56,160
you know i think she played a central

1659
01:00:59,750 --> 01:00:58,240
role because for some people

1660
01:01:02,069 --> 01:00:59,760
my father might be a little bit hard to

1661
01:01:05,910 --> 01:01:02,079
relate to he was an absent-minded

1662
01:01:07,829 --> 01:01:05,920
astrophysicist and my mom was a salt of

1663
01:01:09,589 --> 01:01:07,839
the earth woman from ohio

1664
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:09,599
and i think a lot of people thought that

1665
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:12,480
if mimi heineck somebody like that

1666
01:01:16,309 --> 01:01:14,720
who was working with the juvenile court

1667
01:01:17,670 --> 01:01:16,319
in chicago and

1668
01:01:19,990 --> 01:01:17,680
you know was the chairman of the cook

1669
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:20,000
county league of women voters

1670
01:01:24,309 --> 01:01:22,880
was not only interested but working

1671
01:01:26,390 --> 01:01:24,319
actively in the field

1672
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:26,400
in her own right then maybe there's

1673
01:01:30,630 --> 01:01:28,160
something to it here

1674
01:01:31,750 --> 01:01:30,640
wow did she actually ever look into

1675
01:01:36,230 --> 01:01:31,760
anything seriously

1676
01:01:40,230 --> 01:01:38,230
uh yes i mean she was she was very

1677
01:01:42,470 --> 01:01:40,240
active um

1678
01:01:43,990 --> 01:01:42,480
you know i think my father was kind of

1679
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:44,000
the visionary who

1680
01:01:47,990 --> 01:01:46,240
sort of liked to shine a light for

1681
01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:48,000
mainstream science a little bit

1682
01:01:52,950 --> 01:01:50,240
farther and try to push the

1683
01:01:53,910 --> 01:01:52,960
understanding or the acceptance of

1684
01:01:56,230 --> 01:01:53,920
mainstream

1685
01:01:58,630 --> 01:01:56,240
science a little bit towards the sort of

1686
01:01:59,990 --> 01:01:58,640
uh jaggedy edges of the field

1687
01:02:01,589 --> 01:02:00,000
and i think my mom was the one that

1688
01:02:02,630 --> 01:02:01,599
would just want to come in and make

1689
01:02:06,470 --> 01:02:02,640
order

1690
01:02:07,750 --> 01:02:06,480
and um and rules and and make it more

1691
01:02:11,109 --> 01:02:07,760
sort of established

1692
01:02:13,029 --> 01:02:11,119
but um anybody who knew her and darwin

1693
01:02:15,029 --> 01:02:13,039
sure can second this would say that she

1694
01:02:18,390 --> 01:02:15,039
was quite actively involved and

1695
01:02:20,950 --> 01:02:18,400
fascinated by the topic wow totally

1696
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:20,960
totally in fact uh she often

1697
01:02:25,430 --> 01:02:24,240
for the uh monographs that cucos would

1698
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:25,440
publish

1699
01:02:31,750 --> 01:02:28,559
like on the coin helicopter case or

1700
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:31,760
um um like the russian

1701
01:02:36,309 --> 01:02:33,760
ufo phenomena that type of thing she

1702
01:02:39,029 --> 01:02:36,319
often would do the actual editing

1703
01:02:40,870 --> 01:02:39,039
of these publications and she was very

1704
01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:40,880
much involved as far as with the

1705
01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:43,599
monthly at that time magazine

1706
01:02:49,670 --> 01:02:46,319
international ufo reporter

1707
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:49,680
so she would even get into the field uh

1708
01:02:55,990 --> 01:02:52,799
one of the most you know wonderful

1709
01:02:58,870 --> 01:02:56,000
experiences with with mimi heineck was

1710
01:03:00,710 --> 01:02:58,880
after ellen had passed away so this

1711
01:03:05,109 --> 01:03:00,720
would be three years later

1712
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:05,119
and we had our first archaeological dig

1713
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:08,880
at the roswell debris field 1989 or so

1714
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:12,319
yes september of 89 and

1715
01:03:18,549 --> 01:03:16,559
we were kufo sponsored the project

1716
01:03:20,309 --> 01:03:18,559
argon laboratories we had two

1717
01:03:21,910 --> 01:03:20,319
archaeologists from argonne our

1718
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:21,920
scientific director

1719
01:03:27,589 --> 01:03:25,200
who had succeeded

1720
01:03:28,870 --> 01:03:27,599
succeeded as far as alan was dr mark

1721
01:03:31,589 --> 01:03:28,880
brodiger

1722
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:31,599
but who was there who came over from

1723
01:03:36,309 --> 01:03:33,599
scottsdale

1724
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:36,319
and pretty much was our you know our

1725
01:03:40,710 --> 01:03:37,920
cook our chuck wake

1726
01:03:42,870 --> 01:03:40,720
you know cook at the site who was just

1727
01:03:44,789 --> 01:03:42,880
as much involved on her hands and knees

1728
01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:44,799
and with the trowels and with the shaker

1729
01:03:49,589 --> 01:03:45,760
boxes

1730
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:49,599
but paul's mother mimi

1731
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:52,559
and as often as we would be out there in

1732
01:03:57,750 --> 01:03:55,280
the hot desert sun

1733
01:03:59,910 --> 01:03:57,760
and mimi would be sitting there with us

1734
01:04:03,270 --> 01:03:59,920
and every so often she would look

1735
01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:03,280
at us and she would go alan would be so

1736
01:04:07,990 --> 01:04:06,160
proud of you boys

1737
01:04:10,150 --> 01:04:08,000
because we weren't sitting behind a desk

1738
01:04:11,990 --> 01:04:10,160
we were actually out in the field

1739
01:04:13,990 --> 01:04:12,000
trying to make things happen we were

1740
01:04:15,829 --> 01:04:14,000
looking for the evidence

1741
01:04:17,750 --> 01:04:15,839
not expecting the phone to ring and

1742
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:17,760
somebody to drop it in her lap so to

1743
01:04:21,029 --> 01:04:19,119
speak

1744
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:21,039
and that was the one thing that alan had

1745
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:22,160
always taught us

1746
01:04:25,670 --> 01:04:24,720
and here we were doing it and there she

1747
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:25,680
was

1748
01:04:31,990 --> 01:04:28,799
his wife his widow participating with

1749
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:32,000
us and she felt right at home

1750
01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:34,960
she felt like it's exactly what he would

1751
01:04:38,710 --> 01:04:35,920
wanted her

1752
01:04:39,349 --> 01:04:38,720
to also be doing at the time so it was

1753
01:04:41,829 --> 01:04:39,359
just a

1754
01:04:43,990 --> 01:04:41,839
wonderful wonderful uh you know

1755
01:04:46,789 --> 01:04:44,000
experience that i will never forget

1756
01:04:47,510 --> 01:04:46,799
wow that makes me happy to hear that um

1757
01:04:48,950 --> 01:04:47,520
so

1758
01:04:50,710 --> 01:04:48,960
uh there you can see the question up

1759
01:04:53,270 --> 01:04:50,720
there uh from mary grace

1760
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:53,280
um she wanted to know if uh mimi ever

1761
01:04:58,069 --> 01:04:55,520
had a ufo sighting herself or paul or

1762
01:05:00,230 --> 01:04:58,079
joel for that fact did jay allen ever

1763
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:00,240
have a sighting

1764
01:05:03,910 --> 01:05:03,280
um he had two i don't know if he would

1765
01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:03,920
use the word

1766
01:05:08,309 --> 01:05:06,960
sightings he he saw something twice one

1767
01:05:11,910 --> 01:05:08,319
from an airplane and

1768
01:05:13,109 --> 01:05:11,920
once um in canada you know

1769
01:05:15,589 --> 01:05:13,119
and he took a picture of the one from

1770
01:05:17,670 --> 01:05:15,599
the airplane but

1771
01:05:19,990 --> 01:05:17,680
he didn't like to talk too much about

1772
01:05:22,870 --> 01:05:20,000
things that he had seen because

1773
01:05:24,950 --> 01:05:22,880
his value in the field was as a

1774
01:05:28,789 --> 01:05:24,960
third-party objective

1775
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:28,799
referee let's say and the more he would

1776
01:05:31,190 --> 01:05:29,440
talk about

1777
01:05:32,710 --> 01:05:31,200
something that he saw especially a

1778
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:32,720
single-person

1779
01:05:39,109 --> 01:05:36,000
encounter it's it's not that it's not

1780
01:05:41,190 --> 01:05:39,119
that valuable because um many other

1781
01:05:42,549 --> 01:05:41,200
people have reported seeing things he's

1782
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:42,559
not very much different maybe he's a

1783
01:05:47,190 --> 01:05:45,280
little bit more astronomically informed

1784
01:05:49,589 --> 01:05:47,200
but his sighting isn't worth that much

1785
01:05:52,710 --> 01:05:49,599
more than anybody else's if any at all

1786
01:05:54,710 --> 01:05:52,720
so he wasn't that comfortable talking

1787
01:05:57,750 --> 01:05:54,720
about things he himself had seen

1788
01:05:57,990 --> 01:05:57,760
um i'm not aware of mom seeing anything

1789
01:06:02,549 --> 01:05:58,000
and

1790
01:06:06,390 --> 01:06:02,559
seen anything that we think would rise

1791
01:06:07,990 --> 01:06:06,400
to the level of a bona fide sighting

1792
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:08,000
well interesting and you know that

1793
01:06:11,029 --> 01:06:09,760
doesn't matter i've mentioned this on

1794
01:06:12,950 --> 01:06:11,039
this show before

1795
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:12,960
um you know the for the people that look

1796
01:06:16,390 --> 01:06:14,400
into this topic you know i've never

1797
01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:16,400
asked you don if you ever had a sighting

1798
01:06:19,430 --> 01:06:18,000
i don't think it matters whether someone

1799
01:06:21,510 --> 01:06:19,440
has had a sighting or not

1800
01:06:22,710 --> 01:06:21,520
it's such a fascinating topic and

1801
01:06:25,750 --> 01:06:22,720
there's so much

1802
01:06:27,829 --> 01:06:25,760
um evidence more or less out there that

1803
01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:27,839
something is definitely going on well i

1804
01:06:30,630 --> 01:06:30,000
believe we've all seen things in a

1805
01:06:33,670 --> 01:06:30,640
nighttime

1806
01:06:34,870 --> 01:06:33,680
sky that maybe for a moment you let your

1807
01:06:38,150 --> 01:06:34,880
imagination

1808
01:06:40,150 --> 01:06:38,160
go with it but nothing that i would have

1809
01:06:42,549 --> 01:06:40,160
reported nothing that i would have

1810
01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:42,559
you know would ever claim i actually saw

1811
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:44,240
the genuine article

1812
01:06:47,589 --> 01:06:45,680
but you're absolutely right martin i

1813
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:47,599
mean how can anyone you know

1814
01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:49,119
turn away from this subject you're

1815
01:06:52,390 --> 01:06:50,640
talking about the biggest story of the

1816
01:06:55,910 --> 01:06:52,400
millennium

1817
01:06:59,510 --> 01:06:55,920
and um i only my biggest regret

1818
01:07:02,230 --> 01:06:59,520
is that the alan hynix

1819
01:07:02,549 --> 01:07:02,240
and specifically alan heineck that if we

1820
01:07:07,510 --> 01:07:02,559
are

1821
01:07:10,950 --> 01:07:07,520
disclosure

1822
01:07:13,990 --> 01:07:10,960
that he wasn't there he's not here to

1823
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:14,000
receive all the due credit that he

1824
01:07:19,510 --> 01:07:15,599
deserves

1825
01:07:21,029 --> 01:07:19,520
wow because i was there at times when

1826
01:07:23,029 --> 01:07:21,039
as i mentioned earlier when they would

1827
01:07:26,069 --> 01:07:23,039
dangle that carrot

1828
01:07:28,549 --> 01:07:26,079
and and paul certainly remembers that

1829
01:07:29,829 --> 01:07:28,559
being in the chicago area there were

1830
01:07:33,109 --> 01:07:29,839
some wonderful

1831
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:33,119
media outlets at that time

1832
01:07:44,150 --> 01:07:40,549
series of media

1833
01:07:46,150 --> 01:07:44,160
contacts he had uh wonderful support

1834
01:07:49,109 --> 01:07:46,160
from the chicago media

1835
01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:49,119
the likes of eddie schwartz and david

1836
01:07:58,230 --> 01:07:55,109
earl cups and as far as in that market

1837
01:07:58,950 --> 01:07:58,240
and as a result whenever they would get

1838
01:08:02,230 --> 01:07:58,960
a tip

1839
01:08:04,470 --> 01:08:02,240
they would get something that you know

1840
01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:04,480
potentially was coming down the pipe

1841
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:05,920
that there was going to be some type of

1842
01:08:09,750 --> 01:08:07,200
an announcement

1843
01:08:11,510 --> 01:08:09,760
regarding the very subject they would

1844
01:08:14,470 --> 01:08:11,520
immediately contact uh

1845
01:08:15,109 --> 01:08:14,480
you know alan and i can remember like

1846
01:08:19,110 --> 01:08:15,119
during the

1847
01:08:20,229 --> 01:08:19,120
administration was the first time

1848
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:20,239
and then during the carter

1849
01:08:25,269 --> 01:08:22,400
administration that

1850
01:08:26,390 --> 01:08:25,279
and that was the one that i was around

1851
01:08:28,390 --> 01:08:26,400
at the time

1852
01:08:32,149 --> 01:08:28,400
that he would be you know quickly you

1853
01:08:34,870 --> 01:08:32,159
know race down to wgn in chicago

1854
01:08:37,749 --> 01:08:34,880
and both times something it was called

1855
01:08:41,349 --> 01:08:37,759
off it didn't happen

1856
01:08:43,829 --> 01:08:41,359
he was never discouraged as much as well

1857
01:08:45,030 --> 01:08:43,839
he would come away going well not

1858
01:08:47,669 --> 01:08:45,040
tonight but maybe

1859
01:08:48,709 --> 01:08:47,679
tomorrow night or maybe next month maybe

1860
01:08:51,189 --> 01:08:48,719
next year

1861
01:08:52,870 --> 01:08:51,199
one of these times is going to happen he

1862
01:08:55,269 --> 01:08:52,880
didn't i don't think he ever felt like

1863
01:08:58,390 --> 01:08:55,279
he was being used or toyed with

1864
01:09:00,630 --> 01:08:58,400
he just again he wanted to be there

1865
01:09:02,950 --> 01:09:00,640
when that announcement you know was

1866
01:09:06,070 --> 01:09:02,960
actually made

1867
01:09:09,590 --> 01:09:06,080
wow well you know i see there's a lot

1868
01:09:12,470 --> 01:09:09,600
more um scientists actually taking this

1869
01:09:13,590 --> 01:09:12,480
topic series enough to look into it i

1870
01:09:15,430 --> 01:09:13,600
see the progression

1871
01:09:16,630 --> 01:09:15,440
and i think we are in a very interesting

1872
01:09:19,430 --> 01:09:16,640
time to be

1873
01:09:20,070 --> 01:09:19,440
um involved in this topic and and it's

1874
01:09:26,550 --> 01:09:20,080
really

1875
01:09:30,070 --> 01:09:26,560
as far as the things that um

1876
01:09:31,669 --> 01:09:30,080
jay allen heinek um would appreciate

1877
01:09:33,349 --> 01:09:31,679
today do you think he would be just

1878
01:09:35,349 --> 01:09:33,359
shocked that um

1879
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:35,359
you know the pentagon supposedly had a

1880
01:09:41,269 --> 01:09:38,319
program investigating ufos

1881
01:09:43,430 --> 01:09:41,279
and they actually are allowing the

1882
01:09:47,430 --> 01:09:43,440
public to know about it

1883
01:09:49,189 --> 01:09:47,440
i think this gets back to the idea of

1884
01:09:50,550 --> 01:09:49,199
different parts of the government acting

1885
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:50,560
in different ways with

1886
01:09:54,950 --> 01:09:53,359
different desires you know the air force

1887
01:09:58,950 --> 01:09:54,960
was

1888
01:10:01,350 --> 01:09:58,960
non-stop obstructionist

1889
01:10:02,229 --> 01:10:01,360
they just wanted to stamp solved on

1890
01:10:04,790 --> 01:10:02,239
every case

1891
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:04,800
and even though the quote best cases

1892
01:10:09,669 --> 01:10:06,960
were siphoned off

1893
01:10:10,550 --> 01:10:09,679
the 12 000 odd cases that blue book took

1894
01:10:14,870 --> 01:10:10,560
on

1895
01:10:16,709 --> 01:10:14,880
to explain everything away

1896
01:10:18,149 --> 01:10:16,719
they still couldn't explain about five

1897
01:10:21,189 --> 01:10:18,159
percent of the cases

1898
01:10:23,189 --> 01:10:21,199
um and this is not a you know a

1899
01:10:25,430 --> 01:10:23,199
scientifically credible fashion

1900
01:10:27,110 --> 01:10:25,440
so the air force basically their job was

1901
01:10:30,070 --> 01:10:27,120
to convince people

1902
01:10:30,550 --> 01:10:30,080
that they've got our backs there's no

1903
01:10:32,870 --> 01:10:30,560
threat

1904
01:10:34,070 --> 01:10:32,880
posed to us from whatever these things

1905
01:10:37,270 --> 01:10:34,080
may be

1906
01:10:38,630 --> 01:10:37,280
please disperse and go away now you have

1907
01:10:42,470 --> 01:10:38,640
the navy

1908
01:10:43,669 --> 01:10:42,480
saying yes we've seen hundreds of these

1909
01:10:45,669 --> 01:10:43,679
things

1910
01:10:47,590 --> 01:10:45,679
we don't know what to do with them we

1911
01:10:49,590 --> 01:10:47,600
don't even know how to report them

1912
01:10:50,950 --> 01:10:49,600
and by the way here are some legitimate

1913
01:10:52,630 --> 01:10:50,960
videos

1914
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:52,640
can you help us i mean that is a

1915
01:11:00,470 --> 01:10:54,960
completely different stance

1916
01:11:02,470 --> 01:11:00,480
and you know um don mentioned disclosure

1917
01:11:03,910 --> 01:11:02,480
you know that is tantamount to

1918
01:11:06,310 --> 01:11:03,920
disclosure there

1919
01:11:08,390 --> 01:11:06,320
such that we're waiting on confirmation

1920
01:11:10,470 --> 01:11:08,400
but i think my father

1921
01:11:11,990 --> 01:11:10,480
would be gratified that for example the

1922
01:11:14,310 --> 01:11:12,000
close encounters classification

1923
01:11:15,990 --> 01:11:14,320
system has has persevered and has been

1924
01:11:17,990 --> 01:11:16,000
expanded upon that's been a help

1925
01:11:19,510 --> 01:11:18,000
to the field but i think he'd be

1926
01:11:23,270 --> 01:11:19,520
downright

1927
01:11:26,149 --> 01:11:23,280
flabbergasted by this open attitude

1928
01:11:27,350 --> 01:11:26,159
from the navy and the pentagon as

1929
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:27,360
expressed

1930
01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:29,199
in the newspaper of record the new york

1931
01:11:33,669 --> 01:11:30,400
times which used to be

1932
01:11:34,630 --> 01:11:33,679
such a poo poor of the phenomenon that's

1933
01:11:40,950 --> 01:11:34,640
right

1934
01:11:43,270 --> 01:11:40,960
going way back to 1953 he was something

1935
01:11:46,790 --> 01:11:43,280
like an associate or something

1936
01:11:49,430 --> 01:11:46,800
uh for the robertson panel and for

1937
01:11:50,709 --> 01:11:49,440
basically for the anyone that um is not

1938
01:11:54,790 --> 01:11:50,719
familiar with that

1939
01:11:58,070 --> 01:11:54,800
um the robinson panel was formed in 1953

1940
01:12:01,350 --> 01:11:58,080
basically to to stop

1941
01:12:04,550 --> 01:12:01,360
the i don't want to say panic but there

1942
01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:04,560
were a lot of people that were really

1943
01:12:08,870 --> 01:12:07,760
reporting ufos uh dramatically and they

1944
01:12:11,430 --> 01:12:08,880
wanted to kind of

1945
01:12:13,430 --> 01:12:11,440
figure out a way to explain them away to

1946
01:12:15,910 --> 01:12:13,440
calm the public down

1947
01:12:17,669 --> 01:12:15,920
i'm i'm sort of hitting on the outside

1948
01:12:18,310 --> 01:12:17,679
but in a nutshell that's kind of what it

1949
01:12:23,270 --> 01:12:18,320
was

1950
01:12:26,550 --> 01:12:23,280
he have

1951
01:12:27,990 --> 01:12:26,560
and did he move forward i mean he did

1952
01:12:29,669 --> 01:12:28,000
move forward actually

1953
01:12:31,350 --> 01:12:29,679
and trying to explain things away for a

1954
01:12:34,870 --> 01:12:31,360
while and eventually he got

1955
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:34,880
fed up with that right yeah there's not

1956
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:36,560
much of a future in explaining things

1957
01:12:40,470 --> 01:12:37,040
away

1958
01:12:43,030 --> 01:12:40,480
so you know he was loyal and you know

1959
01:12:44,310 --> 01:12:43,040
he had worked on the proximity fuse with

1960
01:12:46,950 --> 01:12:44,320
the air force in world war

1961
01:12:47,750 --> 01:12:46,960
ii so you know we look now we think of

1962
01:12:50,149 --> 01:12:47,760
the government

1963
01:12:51,510 --> 01:12:50,159
and we have highly fractious views of

1964
01:12:53,669 --> 01:12:51,520
the government and

1965
01:12:55,189 --> 01:12:53,679
the credibility of the government as you

1966
01:12:55,910 --> 01:12:55,199
wrote it tremendously there's a gallup

1967
01:12:58,229 --> 01:12:55,920
poll

1968
01:12:59,669 --> 01:12:58,239
not long ago that more than two-thirds

1969
01:13:01,990 --> 01:12:59,679
of americans feel the government

1970
01:13:03,110 --> 01:13:02,000
knows a lot more about ufos than they're

1971
01:13:05,830 --> 01:13:03,120
letting on

1972
01:13:06,229 --> 01:13:05,840
but you know my father you know in the

1973
01:13:09,669 --> 01:13:06,239
late

1974
01:13:11,430 --> 01:13:09,679
40s and early 50s it you know people

1975
01:13:13,030 --> 01:13:11,440
especially scientists had a different

1976
01:13:15,110 --> 01:13:13,040
view towards the military

1977
01:13:16,550 --> 01:13:15,120
so i think he went in there thinking

1978
01:13:18,709 --> 01:13:16,560
okay this would be a short

1979
01:13:20,950 --> 01:13:18,719
piece of work i'll help the air force

1980
01:13:22,550 --> 01:13:20,960
i'll i'll do my patriotic duty

1981
01:13:25,510 --> 01:13:22,560
and it became clear to him pretty

1982
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:25,520
quickly that such was not the case

1983
01:13:29,189 --> 01:13:27,600
wow interesting that paul does make an

1984
01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:29,199
excellent point in that

1985
01:13:35,669 --> 01:13:32,880
keeping in mind post world war ii

1986
01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:35,679
the military walked on water yes as far

1987
01:13:40,950 --> 01:13:37,360
as the country was concerned

1988
01:13:43,510 --> 01:13:40,960
right and that uh he was in many ways

1989
01:13:45,910 --> 01:13:43,520
and and dr heineck was at ohio state at

1990
01:13:46,390 --> 01:13:45,920
the time so he was just down the road

1991
01:13:49,669 --> 01:13:46,400
from

1992
01:13:51,350 --> 01:13:49,679
right patterson it was right field at

1993
01:13:54,390 --> 01:13:51,360
the time but right field yeah

1994
01:13:56,470 --> 01:13:54,400
ohio and so he just

1995
01:13:58,149 --> 01:13:56,480
saw it as a job initially he just

1996
01:13:59,350 --> 01:13:58,159
happened to be the at the right place at

1997
01:14:01,030 --> 01:13:59,360
the right time

1998
01:14:03,189 --> 01:14:01,040
and paul is absolutely correct he

1999
01:14:05,030 --> 01:14:03,199
thought and alan referred to it

2000
01:14:06,229 --> 01:14:05,040
that he thought it was just part of the

2001
01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:06,239
silly season

2002
01:14:10,470 --> 01:14:08,960
as they would call it back then that it

2003
01:14:12,149 --> 01:14:10,480
was just going to be this

2004
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:12,159
fad that would you know through the

2005
01:14:15,510 --> 01:14:14,400
summer of 47 and that would be the

2006
01:14:17,830 --> 01:14:15,520
extent of it

2007
01:14:19,030 --> 01:14:17,840
but uh getting back to quickly the

2008
01:14:22,229 --> 01:14:19,040
robertson panel

2009
01:14:23,430 --> 01:14:22,239
uh dr heineck would talk to us we would

2010
01:14:25,110 --> 01:14:23,440
describe how

2011
01:14:26,790 --> 01:14:25,120
you know he sat there at the panel

2012
01:14:29,030 --> 01:14:26,800
discussions

2013
01:14:30,470 --> 01:14:29,040
with the cia convening as far as the

2014
01:14:32,709 --> 01:14:30,480
robertson panel

2015
01:14:33,669 --> 01:14:32,719
and he would then talk about not once

2016
01:14:36,709 --> 01:14:33,679
that they asked

2017
01:14:38,950 --> 01:14:36,719
my opinion on anything that i just

2018
01:14:41,990 --> 01:14:38,960
basically sat there for two days

2019
01:14:43,750 --> 01:14:42,000
not saying a word because i was in the

2020
01:14:45,669 --> 01:14:43,760
room but they acted like they could have

2021
01:14:47,350 --> 01:14:45,679
cared less they they had their

2022
01:14:49,669 --> 01:14:47,360
preconceived as far as

2023
01:14:51,990 --> 01:14:49,679
the termination they knew they knew what

2024
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:52,000
they were going to as far as conclude as

2025
01:14:56,870 --> 01:14:53,840
far as what was the true

2026
01:14:57,590 --> 01:14:56,880
danger as as paul was alluding to the

2027
01:15:00,470 --> 01:14:57,600
reports

2028
01:15:01,750 --> 01:15:00,480
tying up communication lines and the

2029
01:15:03,990 --> 01:15:01,760
soviets at that

2030
01:15:06,310 --> 01:15:04,000
time could have staged a fake invasion

2031
01:15:06,709 --> 01:15:06,320
and distracted us in one direction as

2032
01:15:08,390 --> 01:15:06,719
they

2033
01:15:09,990 --> 01:15:08,400
actually invaded the united states that

2034
01:15:13,430 --> 01:15:10,000
type of thing but

2035
01:15:13,750 --> 01:15:13,440
uh but again alan heineck saw through it

2036
01:15:20,390 --> 01:15:13,760
he

2037
01:15:23,030 --> 01:15:20,400
it was again part of how can we stall

2038
01:15:24,870 --> 01:15:23,040
and delay how can we keep the press from

2039
01:15:26,550 --> 01:15:24,880
nipping at our ankles because

2040
01:15:27,990 --> 01:15:26,560
the sightings are going to continue no

2041
01:15:30,229 --> 01:15:28,000
matter what

2042
01:15:31,910 --> 01:15:30,239
and that's all alan heineck was

2043
01:15:33,110 --> 01:15:31,920
interested in he wasn't interested in

2044
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:33,120
the politics

2045
01:15:36,709 --> 01:15:35,760
he wasn't interested even so much as the

2046
01:15:39,669 --> 01:15:36,719
military

2047
01:15:41,590 --> 01:15:39,679
response he was interested strictly in

2048
01:15:43,830 --> 01:15:41,600
the science of it

2049
01:15:45,270 --> 01:15:43,840
and that's what he taught all of us the

2050
01:15:48,550 --> 01:15:45,280
science behind

2051
01:15:49,990 --> 01:15:48,560
the very re realization that we're

2052
01:15:53,189 --> 01:15:50,000
dealing with the phenomenon

2053
01:15:57,110 --> 01:15:53,199
off the planets wow

2054
01:15:59,910 --> 01:15:57,120
um do you know when um when he was

2055
01:16:01,430 --> 01:15:59,920
before he was ever contacted for any of

2056
01:16:04,310 --> 01:16:01,440
these programs

2057
01:16:04,870 --> 01:16:04,320
did he ever even think of the topic of

2058
01:16:06,390 --> 01:16:04,880
of

2059
01:16:07,990 --> 01:16:06,400
these well i don't want to call them

2060
01:16:11,110 --> 01:16:08,000
ufos but you know

2061
01:16:14,229 --> 01:16:11,120
uh i think didn't he did he

2062
01:16:15,350 --> 01:16:14,239
uh was it him that actually coined that

2063
01:16:18,550 --> 01:16:15,360
phrase to paul

2064
01:16:20,709 --> 01:16:18,560
ufo i i'm not well

2065
01:16:23,669 --> 01:16:20,719
the first part of your question i don't

2066
01:16:25,830 --> 01:16:23,679
think he thought much about ufos before

2067
01:16:27,189 --> 01:16:25,840
project blue book um i don't know of

2068
01:16:29,830 --> 01:16:27,199
anything to indicate that

2069
01:16:31,910 --> 01:16:29,840
and i i don't i don't think he came up

2070
01:16:32,870 --> 01:16:31,920
with ufos it may have been edward rupelt

2071
01:16:34,070 --> 01:16:32,880
but

2072
01:16:36,709 --> 01:16:34,080
oh that's right you're right you're

2073
01:16:37,830 --> 01:16:36,719
right now that was rupaul first director

2074
01:16:40,229 --> 01:16:37,840
of blue book yeah

2075
01:16:41,430 --> 01:16:40,239
yeah that's right i do remember that now

2076
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:41,440
but um

2077
01:16:45,030 --> 01:16:44,159
yeah so this is this must really be

2078
01:16:48,149 --> 01:16:45,040
interesting for

2079
01:16:51,430 --> 01:16:48,159
for someone that has no interest in it

2080
01:16:54,630 --> 01:16:51,440
and has a science uh background

2081
01:16:55,830 --> 01:16:54,640
but is made kind of pushed into looking

2082
01:16:57,910 --> 01:16:55,840
at the topic

2083
01:16:58,870 --> 01:16:57,920
and uh then to see the whole thing

2084
01:17:01,350 --> 01:16:58,880
evolve

2085
01:17:02,790 --> 01:17:01,360
between one side and you know i'm sure

2086
01:17:03,510 --> 01:17:02,800
you don't want me to bring up the swamp

2087
01:17:06,229 --> 01:17:03,520
gas

2088
01:17:07,270 --> 01:17:06,239
but uh you know you see him evolve

2089
01:17:09,189 --> 01:17:07,280
through all that

2090
01:17:10,870 --> 01:17:09,199
and then get on to the other side i

2091
01:17:12,709 --> 01:17:10,880
would be happy to even comment on that

2092
01:17:14,310 --> 01:17:12,719
because it was something he never lived

2093
01:17:18,310 --> 01:17:14,320
on you're talking about the dexter ann

2094
01:17:22,790 --> 01:17:18,320
arbor sightings in michigan in 1966

2095
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:22,800
and alan always described how the moment

2096
01:17:27,669 --> 01:17:24,400
he arrived on the scene

2097
01:17:30,070 --> 01:17:27,679
again on assignment he came straight up

2098
01:17:31,830 --> 01:17:30,080
as far as from dayton ohio from wright

2099
01:17:33,510 --> 01:17:31,840
pat he had a briefing there and went

2100
01:17:36,470 --> 01:17:33,520
right up to michigan

2101
01:17:38,790 --> 01:17:36,480
and at the moment he got off the plane

2102
01:17:39,910 --> 01:17:38,800
he was surrounded by reporters they were

2103
01:17:42,550 --> 01:17:39,920
literally grabbing

2104
01:17:43,030 --> 01:17:42,560
on him i mean physically pulling on him

2105
01:17:47,750 --> 01:17:43,040
for

2106
01:17:49,270 --> 01:17:47,760
these these sightings that had even

2107
01:17:51,830 --> 01:17:49,280
garnered the attention

2108
01:17:53,830 --> 01:17:51,840
of the then uh michigan congressman

2109
01:17:57,990 --> 01:17:53,840
gerald ford

2110
01:18:00,149 --> 01:17:58,000
and it was only one specific sighting

2111
01:18:01,430 --> 01:18:00,159
that happened to be over a farmer's

2112
01:18:05,750 --> 01:18:01,440
field it was a very

2113
01:18:08,149 --> 01:18:05,760
marshy area and

2114
01:18:10,870 --> 01:18:08,159
heineken up with the explanation for

2115
01:18:15,430 --> 01:18:10,880
that one lone sighting

2116
01:18:18,550 --> 01:18:15,440
possibly swamp gas marsh gas

2117
01:18:19,270 --> 01:18:18,560
well that's ex but that's exactly what

2118
01:18:21,990 --> 01:18:19,280
the press

2119
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:22,000
latched on to that here was the

2120
01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:23,760
consultant the scientific consultant the

2121
01:18:26,950 --> 01:18:24,800
project blew a book

2122
01:18:29,110 --> 01:18:26,960
that was explaining away all the

2123
01:18:32,470 --> 01:18:29,120
michigan sightings at that time

2124
01:18:35,590 --> 01:18:32,480
as being simply swamp gas and he

2125
01:18:38,229 --> 01:18:35,600
it was not intended as far as and to

2126
01:18:40,790 --> 01:18:38,239
the time he died he was constantly

2127
01:18:41,590 --> 01:18:40,800
reminding people that only was in

2128
01:18:45,350 --> 01:18:41,600
reference to

2129
01:18:47,510 --> 01:18:45,360
one lone sighting at that time

2130
01:18:48,390 --> 01:18:47,520
and they never allowed him to live it

2131
01:18:51,510 --> 01:18:48,400
down

2132
01:18:52,470 --> 01:18:51,520
wow that uh colleagues even in the field

2133
01:18:54,790 --> 01:18:52,480
you know well

2134
01:18:55,510 --> 01:18:54,800
you know swamp gas there and i to this

2135
01:18:57,990 --> 01:18:55,520
day

2136
01:19:00,149 --> 01:18:58,000
even regards to roswell someone will

2137
01:19:02,229 --> 01:19:00,159
jokingly bring up well it was just swamp

2138
01:19:06,310 --> 01:19:02,239
gas

2139
01:19:09,350 --> 01:19:06,320
and i'm sorry there's more to the story

2140
01:19:12,149 --> 01:19:09,360
and that uh the other signings

2141
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:12,159
for example quickly there was an air

2142
01:19:16,229 --> 01:19:13,040
force

2143
01:19:18,310 --> 01:19:16,239
officer who was assigning it who had was

2144
01:19:20,470 --> 01:19:18,320
a witness at that time

2145
01:19:23,270 --> 01:19:20,480
and the air force covered up the fact

2146
01:19:26,390 --> 01:19:23,280
that they had a major witness

2147
01:19:27,990 --> 01:19:26,400
who saw something truly extraordinary

2148
01:19:30,229 --> 01:19:28,000
along with the students at the

2149
01:19:31,110 --> 01:19:30,239
university and the police who were

2150
01:19:33,350 --> 01:19:31,120
involved

2151
01:19:36,310 --> 01:19:33,360
so this was just one more example of

2152
01:19:39,030 --> 01:19:36,320
just how legitimate these sightings were

2153
01:19:41,590 --> 01:19:39,040
well alan went and talked to this air

2154
01:19:45,430 --> 01:19:41,600
force officer he got it all on tape

2155
01:19:47,270 --> 01:19:45,440
it was a wonderful close encounter

2156
01:19:49,590 --> 01:19:47,280
air force completely covered it up blue

2157
01:19:50,229 --> 01:19:49,600
book would not even allow alan to talk

2158
01:19:52,630 --> 01:19:50,239
about it

2159
01:19:54,390 --> 01:19:52,640
publicly that there were that there were

2160
01:19:58,390 --> 01:19:54,400
legitimate signings at that time

2161
01:20:02,070 --> 01:20:01,030
wow and and that point about you know

2162
01:20:04,709 --> 01:20:02,080
being sort of

2163
01:20:05,830 --> 01:20:04,719
um misrepresented in the press you know

2164
01:20:08,310 --> 01:20:05,840
my father was a

2165
01:20:09,110 --> 01:20:08,320
professor and he was used to being able

2166
01:20:10,870 --> 01:20:09,120
to

2167
01:20:13,590 --> 01:20:10,880
hold the floor for as long as he wanted

2168
01:20:14,950 --> 01:20:13,600
to make a point and being on tv although

2169
01:20:15,910 --> 01:20:14,960
he was comfortable in front of the

2170
01:20:18,470 --> 01:20:15,920
camera

2171
01:20:21,189 --> 01:20:18,480
the ufo field is not something that

2172
01:20:24,229 --> 01:20:21,199
really reduces easily to sound bites

2173
01:20:26,390 --> 01:20:24,239
so you know people try to score

2174
01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:26,400
points like carl sage would try to score

2175
01:20:29,669 --> 01:20:27,920
points and debates

2176
01:20:31,270 --> 01:20:29,679
and this was something my father felt he

2177
01:20:32,470 --> 01:20:31,280
was not really on even footing because

2178
01:20:35,830 --> 01:20:32,480
you can't really

2179
01:20:39,030 --> 01:20:35,840
sum up the nuances of one of the most

2180
01:20:43,189 --> 01:20:39,040
vexing questions ever to face mankind in

2181
01:20:46,629 --> 01:20:43,199
a 10-minute segment between commercials

2182
01:20:49,990 --> 01:20:46,639
you brought up you brought up sagan uh

2183
01:20:53,669 --> 01:20:50,000
and the famous debate between

2184
01:20:56,070 --> 01:20:53,679
carl sagan and your father and

2185
01:20:57,750 --> 01:20:56,080
your father was pretty nervous going

2186
01:20:59,430 --> 01:20:57,760
into that situation

2187
01:21:00,950 --> 01:20:59,440
for that very fact that you just

2188
01:21:02,950 --> 01:21:00,960
described paul

2189
01:21:03,990 --> 01:21:02,960
that it's more than just a sound bite

2190
01:21:08,390 --> 01:21:04,000
it's more than

2191
01:21:11,669 --> 01:21:08,400
exchange of

2192
01:21:15,189 --> 01:21:11,679
ideas on a debate debate

2193
01:21:18,310 --> 01:21:15,199
situation and

2194
01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:18,320
dr heineck presented his a paper for his

2195
01:21:21,990 --> 01:21:19,920
opening statement

2196
01:21:23,669 --> 01:21:22,000
and i'll never forget how sagan just

2197
01:21:26,470 --> 01:21:23,679
comes walking out

2198
01:21:27,110 --> 01:21:26,480
and takes the microphone from the podium

2199
01:21:29,830 --> 01:21:27,120
and then

2200
01:21:30,790 --> 01:21:29,840
steps in front of it and leans on the

2201
01:21:33,270 --> 01:21:30,800
front of it

2202
01:21:37,350 --> 01:21:33,280
with one elbow and he starts to put to

2203
01:21:43,750 --> 01:21:41,030
and it truly affected

2204
01:21:45,350 --> 01:21:43,760
alan heineck in the sense that for years

2205
01:21:46,870 --> 01:21:45,360
thereafter

2206
01:21:49,110 --> 01:21:46,880
we would be in the field together we

2207
01:21:51,590 --> 01:21:49,120
would be working on something

2208
01:21:53,189 --> 01:21:51,600
and if he said it once he said it a

2209
01:21:56,310 --> 01:21:53,199
dozen times

2210
01:21:58,870 --> 01:21:56,320
where alan would say to me or say to

2211
01:22:00,229 --> 01:21:58,880
the other researchers or investigators

2212
01:22:02,950 --> 01:22:00,239
with us he would go

2213
01:22:04,470 --> 01:22:02,960
well what will carl say what will carl

2214
01:22:07,270 --> 01:22:04,480
say

2215
01:22:08,709 --> 01:22:07,280
so it was it was a shadow i wish he

2216
01:22:10,629 --> 01:22:08,719
didn't acknowledge

2217
01:22:12,629 --> 01:22:10,639
but nonetheless it was there and it was

2218
01:22:14,950 --> 01:22:12,639
all because of that debate

2219
01:22:16,709 --> 01:22:14,960
that he felt that there from there after

2220
01:22:17,669 --> 01:22:16,719
that he had to prove something to carl

2221
01:22:19,510 --> 01:22:17,679
sagan

2222
01:22:21,510 --> 01:22:19,520
and as far as i'm concerned he didn't

2223
01:22:23,590 --> 01:22:21,520
have to prove anything

2224
01:22:25,590 --> 01:22:23,600
yeah he already had demonstrated that

2225
01:22:28,470 --> 01:22:25,600
there was a legitimate phenomenon

2226
01:22:29,430 --> 01:22:28,480
and and sagan was honestly in the hip

2227
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:29,440
pocket

2228
01:22:33,510 --> 01:22:31,440
of uh the powers that be in washington

2229
01:22:36,149 --> 01:22:33,520
he was getting grants and public

2230
01:22:36,629 --> 01:22:36,159
and funding as far as other projects and

2231
01:22:39,830 --> 01:22:36,639
uh

2232
01:22:43,189 --> 01:22:39,840
at the time alan heineck was not so

2233
01:22:46,390 --> 01:22:43,199
um i mean there were papers by

2234
01:22:47,430 --> 01:22:46,400
sagan that you know early papers in the

2235
01:22:48,870 --> 01:22:47,440
60s that

2236
01:22:50,550 --> 01:22:48,880
you know showed that he really thought

2237
01:22:54,149 --> 01:22:50,560
there was something more

2238
01:22:57,189 --> 01:22:54,159
going on but they bought them off

2239
01:22:57,990 --> 01:22:57,199
they bought them off and and clearly the

2240
01:23:01,110 --> 01:22:58,000
difference is

2241
01:23:03,430 --> 01:23:01,120
carl sagan had a price and

2242
01:23:04,390 --> 01:23:03,440
they met it and he accepted it and was

2243
01:23:07,350 --> 01:23:04,400
as i said

2244
01:23:08,709 --> 01:23:07,360
he worked for them there thereafter alan

2245
01:23:11,270 --> 01:23:08,719
heineck did not

2246
01:23:13,270 --> 01:23:11,280
wow um i want to say this we're going to

2247
01:23:16,390 --> 01:23:13,280
start taking phone calls now

2248
01:23:18,470 --> 01:23:16,400
so um anyone on youtube you can see the

2249
01:23:19,830 --> 01:23:18,480
number up there if you're over at kgra

2250
01:23:22,709 --> 01:23:19,840
radio that number is

2251
01:23:23,110 --> 01:23:22,719
eight five five four seven two five four

2252
01:23:26,149 --> 01:23:23,120
eight

2253
01:23:27,750 --> 01:23:26,159
three so uh we are taking calls and bill

2254
01:23:28,870 --> 01:23:27,760
who does a wonderful job is screening

2255
01:23:31,669 --> 01:23:28,880
the calls

2256
01:23:33,270 --> 01:23:31,679
so the lines are open and uh we are

2257
01:23:36,470 --> 01:23:33,280
ready to take your calls

2258
01:23:38,790 --> 01:23:36,480
um so i want to talk to you paul about

2259
01:23:39,990 --> 01:23:38,800
father gill because first of all i love

2260
01:23:42,229 --> 01:23:40,000
that case

2261
01:23:44,229 --> 01:23:42,239
i think that was 1959 or something like

2262
01:23:45,990 --> 01:23:44,239
that when that happened

2263
01:23:48,470 --> 01:23:46,000
but he seemed like such an authentic guy

2264
01:23:51,189 --> 01:23:48,480
what was he like in person

2265
01:23:51,750 --> 01:23:51,199
yeah he came to our house for dinner i

2266
01:23:55,270 --> 01:23:51,760
think

2267
01:23:56,950 --> 01:23:55,280
in the mid 70s and you know he was in

2268
01:23:58,149 --> 01:23:56,960
papua new guinea as an anglican

2269
01:24:01,350 --> 01:23:58,159
missionary

2270
01:24:02,070 --> 01:24:01,360
and he came for an ecumenical religious

2271
01:24:04,629 --> 01:24:02,080
conference

2272
01:24:05,750 --> 01:24:04,639
in chicago and my father had known him

2273
01:24:08,310 --> 01:24:05,760
for years

2274
01:24:09,990 --> 01:24:08,320
and he came to our house for dinner and

2275
01:24:13,350 --> 01:24:10,000
one of the things my father would do

2276
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:13,360
is not i don't say interrogate but

2277
01:24:18,550 --> 01:24:16,400
question or talk to a witness

2278
01:24:19,990 --> 01:24:18,560
of or an experiencer as we say these

2279
01:24:23,110 --> 01:24:20,000
days of a

2280
01:24:26,229 --> 01:24:23,120
of an encounter over the course of years

2281
01:24:27,270 --> 01:24:26,239
and and try to see if the story got

2282
01:24:30,070 --> 01:24:27,280
embellished or

2283
01:24:31,430 --> 01:24:30,080
changed etc wow one of the things he

2284
01:24:32,709 --> 01:24:31,440
thought about father gill was he was

2285
01:24:34,790 --> 01:24:32,719
remarkably consistent

2286
01:24:35,750 --> 01:24:34,800
over the years with his retelling of the

2287
01:24:39,189 --> 01:24:35,760
incident

2288
01:24:40,310 --> 01:24:39,199
and uh i was i was impressed because

2289
01:24:43,430 --> 01:24:40,320
father gill

2290
01:24:46,709 --> 01:24:43,440
was not um looking to profit

2291
01:24:49,510 --> 01:24:46,719
from his experience um was not

2292
01:24:50,629 --> 01:24:49,520
overly eager to talk about it but if

2293
01:24:52,310 --> 01:24:50,639
you're somebody like that

2294
01:24:54,790 --> 01:24:52,320
and you come to the heineck house and

2295
01:24:55,990 --> 01:24:54,800
you're fed the kind of quid pro quo is

2296
01:24:57,669 --> 01:24:56,000
you're really gonna have to talk about

2297
01:25:00,709 --> 01:24:57,679
the sighting you

2298
01:25:01,750 --> 01:25:00,719
so he knew the deal so he starts talking

2299
01:25:04,629 --> 01:25:01,760
about it

2300
01:25:07,189 --> 01:25:04,639
and you know i i've met many people in

2301
01:25:09,750 --> 01:25:07,199
the ufo field many experiencers

2302
01:25:11,030 --> 01:25:09,760
and i could see my father how he was

2303
01:25:12,629 --> 01:25:11,040
asking him questions

2304
01:25:14,310 --> 01:25:12,639
from maybe a slightly different angle

2305
01:25:16,629 --> 01:25:14,320
than he had before

2306
01:25:18,149 --> 01:25:16,639
and what jumped out to me about father

2307
01:25:19,189 --> 01:25:18,159
gill was he was extraordinarily

2308
01:25:21,830 --> 01:25:19,199
intelligent

2309
01:25:23,669 --> 01:25:21,840
he was very comfortable in his skin

2310
01:25:27,030 --> 01:25:23,679
[Music]

2311
01:25:28,149 --> 01:25:27,040
he was just sort of matter-of-factly

2312
01:25:31,830 --> 01:25:28,159
relating something

2313
01:25:34,310 --> 01:25:31,840
so out of this world perhaps literally

2314
01:25:35,910 --> 01:25:34,320
and you know even at the time of the

2315
01:25:37,830 --> 01:25:35,920
sighting he's taking notes

2316
01:25:39,430 --> 01:25:37,840
he's taking contemporaneous notes he's

2317
01:25:43,590 --> 01:25:39,440
like the perfect witness

2318
01:25:46,629 --> 01:25:43,600
wow and i was struck by how intelligent

2319
01:25:49,110 --> 01:25:46,639
how calm how matter-of-fact

2320
01:25:51,270 --> 01:25:49,120
he was there was just nothing about him

2321
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:51,280
to impeach him as a witness

2322
01:25:55,350 --> 01:25:53,520
and of course there were hundreds of

2323
01:25:57,590 --> 01:25:55,360
other witnesses as well

2324
01:25:59,830 --> 01:25:57,600
and that was a case that my father loved

2325
01:26:01,830 --> 01:25:59,840
because it didn't have

2326
01:26:03,270 --> 01:26:01,840
some of the more salacious aspects that

2327
01:26:05,590 --> 01:26:03,280
would make it a little bit uncomfortable

2328
01:26:08,790 --> 01:26:05,600
for him to talk about at the time

2329
01:26:11,189 --> 01:26:08,800
and yet had so much corroboration and

2330
01:26:14,229 --> 01:26:11,199
such a fantastic witness

2331
01:26:15,750 --> 01:26:14,239
right yeah that just uh we we actually

2332
01:26:18,070 --> 01:26:15,760
told the story last

2333
01:26:19,270 --> 01:26:18,080
week or a little bit of it um when it

2334
01:26:20,870 --> 01:26:19,280
happened you know this

2335
01:26:22,950 --> 01:26:20,880
this object came it was more than one

2336
01:26:25,990 --> 01:26:22,960
night i do believe

2337
01:26:27,270 --> 01:26:26,000
um and uh but they were standing on top

2338
01:26:30,470 --> 01:26:27,280
of the craft and they actually

2339
01:26:31,430 --> 01:26:30,480
interacted and they got they brought the

2340
01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:31,440
torches out the

2341
01:26:38,550 --> 01:26:35,040
flashlight out and they the craft itself

2342
01:26:40,950 --> 01:26:38,560
actually mimicked the um

2343
01:26:42,870 --> 01:26:40,960
the the movement of the the the

2344
01:26:45,430 --> 01:26:42,880
flashlight which is quite amazing

2345
01:26:46,790 --> 01:26:45,440
a few monkey see monkey do cases in

2346
01:26:49,430 --> 01:26:46,800
ufology

2347
01:26:50,790 --> 01:26:49,440
yeah yeah paul what are some of who are

2348
01:26:52,070 --> 01:26:50,800
some of the other people that came to

2349
01:26:52,709 --> 01:26:52,080
dinner there that sounded like that

2350
01:26:56,310 --> 01:26:52,719
would be

2351
01:26:59,510 --> 01:26:58,470
and yes my mom did make good lasagna and

2352
01:27:04,310 --> 01:26:59,520
casserole

2353
01:27:07,189 --> 01:27:04,320
um you know lots of people um

2354
01:27:08,870 --> 01:27:07,199
calvin parker um oh calvin actually i

2355
01:27:11,430 --> 01:27:08,880
know your friends and keep in touch with

2356
01:27:13,189 --> 01:27:11,440
calvin all the time

2357
01:27:15,510 --> 01:27:13,199
i told him i was gonna talk trash about

2358
01:27:19,110 --> 01:27:15,520
him during the broadcast today

2359
01:27:22,390 --> 01:27:19,120
that's good and uh travis walton

2360
01:27:23,830 --> 01:27:22,400
um and and many others and you know

2361
01:27:24,629 --> 01:27:23,840
people like don and people from the

2362
01:27:27,590 --> 01:27:24,639
center

2363
01:27:28,550 --> 01:27:27,600
um and also just regular astronomers who

2364
01:27:30,470 --> 01:27:28,560
had

2365
01:27:33,110 --> 01:27:30,480
either a passing or no interest in

2366
01:27:33,830 --> 01:27:33,120
ufology but you know my father was a

2367
01:27:37,270 --> 01:27:33,840
scientist

2368
01:27:40,550 --> 01:27:37,280
not a ufo guy and so he wanted

2369
01:27:42,310 --> 01:27:40,560
our our family to be sort of inculcated

2370
01:27:44,470 --> 01:27:42,320
in the overall scientific method

2371
01:27:46,149 --> 01:27:44,480
and the sort of wonders of science and

2372
01:27:47,750 --> 01:27:46,159
the many wonderful questions there are

2373
01:27:51,030 --> 01:27:47,760
to ask about the world

2374
01:27:52,550 --> 01:27:51,040
so it was a real smorgasbord of all

2375
01:27:53,669 --> 01:27:52,560
kinds of folks i remember the comedian

2376
01:27:58,470 --> 01:27:53,679
dick gregory

2377
01:28:01,750 --> 01:27:58,480
um and just all sorts of people

2378
01:28:05,750 --> 01:28:01,760
one of my favorite dinners so to speak

2379
01:28:07,750 --> 01:28:05,760
was a series of of meals for two weeks

2380
01:28:08,870 --> 01:28:07,760
um my younger brother ross my mom and

2381
01:28:13,189 --> 01:28:08,880
dad and i

2382
01:28:16,709 --> 01:28:13,199
went on an eclipse cruise in 1973

2383
01:28:18,950 --> 01:28:16,719
um off the coast of west africa and

2384
01:28:19,750 --> 01:28:18,960
for two weeks our family and one other

2385
01:28:21,590 --> 01:28:19,760
family

2386
01:28:23,750 --> 01:28:21,600
shared all of our meals together and

2387
01:28:26,229 --> 01:28:23,760
that was neil armstrong and his family

2388
01:28:26,790 --> 01:28:26,239
oh my goodness right so i'm an 11 year

2389
01:28:29,110 --> 01:28:26,800
old kid

2390
01:28:30,149 --> 01:28:29,120
son of an astronomer four years after

2391
01:28:32,149 --> 01:28:30,159
the moon launch

2392
01:28:34,149 --> 01:28:32,159
spending two weeks with neil armstrong

2393
01:28:35,830 --> 01:28:34,159
and his family that's right um

2394
01:28:37,830 --> 01:28:35,840
it was just incredible and as i later

2395
01:28:39,430 --> 01:28:37,840
found out there's an article published

2396
01:28:40,950 --> 01:28:39,440
based on a letter my father wrote to

2397
01:28:43,830 --> 01:28:40,960
jenny zeidman

2398
01:28:45,110 --> 01:28:43,840
in the sun from the uk last year the

2399
01:28:47,350 --> 01:28:45,120
year before

2400
01:28:49,830 --> 01:28:47,360
um that that said there was neil

2401
01:28:52,149 --> 01:28:49,840
armstrong who requested that it be our

2402
01:28:54,149 --> 01:28:52,159
family that sit next to his family

2403
01:28:55,510 --> 01:28:54,159
and so and of course he had his pick of

2404
01:28:58,390 --> 01:28:55,520
the litter right so

2405
01:28:59,270 --> 01:28:58,400
either yeah is a fan of my father's

2406
01:29:02,310 --> 01:28:59,280
mainstream

2407
01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:02,320
astronomical career or he had some

2408
01:29:07,510 --> 01:29:03,840
interest in ufos

2409
01:29:11,430 --> 01:29:07,520
how about that also verifying that when

2410
01:29:15,830 --> 01:29:11,440
your father was putting pressure on

2411
01:29:18,550 --> 01:29:15,840
len stringfield honest crash retrieval

2412
01:29:20,390 --> 01:29:18,560
cases that he was accumulating right

2413
01:29:23,990 --> 01:29:20,400
revealing his sources

2414
01:29:26,470 --> 01:29:24,000
and your father was trying to

2415
01:29:28,070 --> 01:29:26,480
leverage different approaches now how

2416
01:29:31,189 --> 01:29:28,080
and who should i bring

2417
01:29:34,510 --> 01:29:31,199
in as a third party that

2418
01:29:37,990 --> 01:29:34,520
with enough notoriety enough

2419
01:29:40,550 --> 01:29:38,000
respectability not in ufology

2420
01:29:41,750 --> 01:29:40,560
necessarily but within the country as a

2421
01:29:45,669 --> 01:29:41,760
whole within the world

2422
01:29:48,390 --> 01:29:45,679
for that matter and when he finally

2423
01:29:49,669 --> 01:29:48,400
approached len and said well the third

2424
01:29:52,310 --> 01:29:49,679
party

2425
01:29:53,830 --> 01:29:52,320
that would work with us on crash

2426
01:29:57,030 --> 01:29:53,840
retrieval cases

2427
01:29:59,990 --> 01:29:57,040
was none other than neil armstrong

2428
01:30:01,430 --> 01:30:00,000
holy wow hey we have a call we have a

2429
01:30:02,950 --> 01:30:01,440
couple calls here

2430
01:30:05,189 --> 01:30:02,960
so i'm going to bring in our first

2431
01:30:07,270 --> 01:30:05,199
caller and that is andy he's calling

2432
01:30:08,790 --> 01:30:07,280
from connecticut andy welcome to the

2433
01:30:12,070 --> 01:30:08,800
show

2434
01:30:15,189 --> 01:30:12,080
hi guys hey my my question is for uh

2435
01:30:18,470 --> 01:30:15,199
either uh either guest but uh

2436
01:30:21,990 --> 01:30:18,480
did uh mr heineck have a uh

2437
01:30:24,550 --> 01:30:22,000
a favorite theory on where he thought

2438
01:30:25,750 --> 01:30:24,560
the ufos might originate from or or was

2439
01:30:29,590 --> 01:30:25,760
he just did he remain

2440
01:30:31,510 --> 01:30:29,600
open-minded uh his entire life

2441
01:30:33,590 --> 01:30:31,520
and uh good show guys i'll take your

2442
01:30:35,669 --> 01:30:33,600
question off there

2443
01:30:37,350 --> 01:30:35,679
i'll i'll take that i think what you

2444
01:30:38,229 --> 01:30:37,360
mentioned about open-minded is very

2445
01:30:41,430 --> 01:30:38,239
important

2446
01:30:44,550 --> 01:30:41,440
mind

2447
01:30:46,790 --> 01:30:44,560
open when you're confronted by what may

2448
01:30:48,709 --> 01:30:46,800
seem to be a new phenomena and that new

2449
01:30:49,830 --> 01:30:48,719
phenomena may run counter to your

2450
01:30:52,310 --> 01:30:49,840
beliefs

2451
01:30:53,189 --> 01:30:52,320
counter to the grant you just received

2452
01:30:56,950 --> 01:30:53,199
um

2453
01:31:00,149 --> 01:30:56,960
important

2454
01:31:01,590 --> 01:31:00,159
to the point that you're making once you

2455
01:31:04,229 --> 01:31:01,600
maybe determine that there is something

2456
01:31:06,390 --> 01:31:04,239
there that you don't rush to grab the

2457
01:31:08,070 --> 01:31:06,400
best available answer and shove it into

2458
01:31:09,110 --> 01:31:08,080
that slot because it may be much more

2459
01:31:11,350 --> 01:31:09,120
complex

2460
01:31:12,390 --> 01:31:11,360
you know my father and chocolate and don

2461
01:31:15,430 --> 01:31:12,400
and others

2462
01:31:17,590 --> 01:31:15,440
came to the conclusion largely that a

2463
01:31:19,590 --> 01:31:17,600
garden variety nuts and bolts

2464
01:31:21,830 --> 01:31:19,600
extraterrestrial origin

2465
01:31:24,310 --> 01:31:21,840
was perhaps part of the phenomena but

2466
01:31:26,229 --> 01:31:24,320
didn't seem to explain

2467
01:31:27,750 --> 01:31:26,239
and encompass all the aspects of the

2468
01:31:28,149 --> 01:31:27,760
phenomena you know my father called the

2469
01:31:32,390 --> 01:31:28,159
book

2470
01:31:34,470 --> 01:31:32,400
experience not the ufo sighting

2471
01:31:35,990 --> 01:31:34,480
because there are lots of elements that

2472
01:31:39,350 --> 01:31:36,000
go well beyond just

2473
01:31:41,990 --> 01:31:39,360
seeing some craft in the sky and so

2474
01:31:43,510 --> 01:31:42,000
one of the ideas he entertained is that

2475
01:31:46,229 --> 01:31:43,520
it could well be

2476
01:31:46,950 --> 01:31:46,239
some portion extra terrestrial travel

2477
01:31:50,310 --> 01:31:46,960
but there are

2478
01:31:52,149 --> 01:31:50,320
problems with that and so not only

2479
01:31:53,590 --> 01:31:52,159
how would they get here but why would

2480
01:31:54,390 --> 01:31:53,600
they come here why would they be

2481
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:54,400
interested

2482
01:31:58,149 --> 01:31:56,880
when we are less than a speck of cosmic

2483
01:32:00,629 --> 01:31:58,159
dust so

2484
01:32:02,310 --> 01:32:00,639
things even perhaps more exotic like

2485
01:32:03,750 --> 01:32:02,320
interdimensional travel

2486
01:32:05,750 --> 01:32:03,760
and things like that he started

2487
01:32:06,950 --> 01:32:05,760
entertaining because that would at least

2488
01:32:09,030 --> 01:32:06,960
explain

2489
01:32:10,229 --> 01:32:09,040
how they got here if they're sort of

2490
01:32:12,629 --> 01:32:10,239
here adjacent

2491
01:32:15,430 --> 01:32:12,639
and why they would care about us see

2492
01:32:18,070 --> 01:32:15,440
paul you you mentioned that your father

2493
01:32:18,950 --> 01:32:18,080
as an astrophysicist as an astronomer

2494
01:32:22,550 --> 01:32:18,960
that

2495
01:32:26,149 --> 01:32:22,560
all this

2496
01:32:28,790 --> 01:32:26,159
was the vast distances of space

2497
01:32:29,910 --> 01:32:28,800
he just had a very difficult time

2498
01:32:33,110 --> 01:32:29,920
accepting

2499
01:32:35,510 --> 01:32:33,120
space travel from point a to point b

2500
01:32:37,110 --> 01:32:35,520
and paul would remember that as he would

2501
01:32:42,070 --> 01:32:37,120
put on a demonstration

2502
01:32:46,790 --> 01:32:44,070
not the width but the thickness of the

2503
01:32:50,229 --> 01:32:46,800
playing card equaling the distance from

2504
01:32:52,149 --> 01:32:50,239
the earth to the moon and then he would

2505
01:32:54,229 --> 01:32:52,159
pose the question

2506
01:32:56,070 --> 01:32:54,239
how many playing cards to equal the

2507
01:32:57,270 --> 01:32:56,080
distance from the earth to our nearest

2508
01:33:01,669 --> 01:32:57,280
star system

2509
01:33:04,790 --> 01:33:01,679
alpha centauri 4.3 light years away

2510
01:33:06,229 --> 01:33:04,800
nobody ever came close yeah but he was

2511
01:33:08,709 --> 01:33:06,239
always very

2512
01:33:09,990 --> 01:33:08,719
you know very dignified very proud to

2513
01:33:13,350 --> 01:33:10,000
say well

2514
01:33:16,790 --> 01:33:13,360
19 miles of playing cards

2515
01:33:19,910 --> 01:33:16,800
how about that just comprehend that well

2516
01:33:21,590 --> 01:33:19,920
just imagine him as an astronomer trying

2517
01:33:25,270 --> 01:33:21,600
to grasp as far as

2518
01:33:27,270 --> 01:33:25,280
that distance but yet the last time i

2519
01:33:29,750 --> 01:33:27,280
and and paul is absolutely correct last

2520
01:33:31,750 --> 01:33:29,760
time i had dinner with with his father

2521
01:33:33,990 --> 01:33:31,760
and i will never forget his you know

2522
01:33:34,790 --> 01:33:34,000
pounding his fist on the table and going

2523
01:33:37,669 --> 01:33:34,800
don

2524
01:33:39,110 --> 01:33:37,679
it's smacking more and more of nuts and

2525
01:33:42,229 --> 01:33:39,120
bolts

2526
01:33:44,390 --> 01:33:42,239
but nonetheless he also then would

2527
01:33:47,030 --> 01:33:44,400
entertain he would use the example

2528
01:33:48,310 --> 01:33:47,040
of the cheshire cats from alice in

2529
01:33:51,750 --> 01:33:48,320
wonderland

2530
01:33:52,950 --> 01:33:51,760
and all you see is the smile after it

2531
01:33:54,550 --> 01:33:52,960
disappears

2532
01:33:56,149 --> 01:33:54,560
and that was the same thing with the ufo

2533
01:33:58,790 --> 01:33:56,159
phenomenon

2534
01:34:00,790 --> 01:33:58,800
that you would see it now you see it now

2535
01:34:03,110 --> 01:34:00,800
you don't where does it go

2536
01:34:05,590 --> 01:34:03,120
witnesses at point a see it moving to

2537
01:34:07,990 --> 01:34:05,600
point b and yet the people at point b

2538
01:34:10,709 --> 01:34:08,000
don't see it approach they do not see it

2539
01:34:13,830 --> 01:34:10,719
arrive where did it go

2540
01:34:15,350 --> 01:34:13,840
so that's the the the greatest mystery

2541
01:34:16,149 --> 01:34:15,360
in all this that we're dealing with

2542
01:34:19,030 --> 01:34:16,159
something

2543
01:34:20,629 --> 01:34:19,040
that is beyond just nuts and bolts that

2544
01:34:23,030 --> 01:34:20,639
it clearly is something

2545
01:34:23,830 --> 01:34:23,040
that is able to literally appear like

2546
01:34:27,189 --> 01:34:23,840
magic

2547
01:34:29,030 --> 01:34:27,199
out of nowhere and alan heineck accepted

2548
01:34:30,229 --> 01:34:29,040
that 100

2549
01:34:32,470 --> 01:34:30,239
yeah and you know he was very

2550
01:34:35,110 --> 01:34:32,480
comfortable describing

2551
01:34:36,470 --> 01:34:35,120
the sort of body of cases and

2552
01:34:37,189 --> 01:34:36,480
conclusions that you can make from the

2553
01:34:38,790 --> 01:34:37,199
cases but

2554
01:34:40,229 --> 01:34:38,800
a little bit less comfortable talking

2555
01:34:41,590 --> 01:34:40,239
about the origins because he didn't

2556
01:34:44,390 --> 01:34:41,600
really know me it's a very

2557
01:34:44,790 --> 01:34:44,400
difficult field and there's always like

2558
01:34:46,390 --> 01:34:44,800
this

2559
01:34:47,990 --> 01:34:46,400
tantalizing answer right around the

2560
01:34:50,550 --> 01:34:48,000
corner so

2561
01:34:51,510 --> 01:34:50,560
to to state where they come from or who

2562
01:34:54,470 --> 01:34:51,520
they are

2563
01:34:56,149 --> 01:34:54,480
that's very difficult but you know he

2564
01:34:58,950 --> 01:34:56,159
just wanted to keep his mind open

2565
01:35:01,030 --> 01:34:58,960
about other possibilities besides the

2566
01:35:04,149 --> 01:35:01,040
knee-jerk extraterrestrial

2567
01:35:05,430 --> 01:35:04,159
default hypothesis right i think that

2568
01:35:08,870 --> 01:35:05,440
was a smart move

2569
01:35:11,510 --> 01:35:08,880
um we have another caller we have uh ron

2570
01:35:13,270 --> 01:35:11,520
calling from minnesota uh ron welcome to

2571
01:35:15,350 --> 01:35:13,280
the show

2572
01:35:16,390 --> 01:35:15,360
hi martin and great show tonight thank

2573
01:35:20,229 --> 01:35:16,400
you for your guest

2574
01:35:20,870 --> 01:35:20,239
don and and uh paul and i had a question

2575
01:35:22,709 --> 01:35:20,880
for all

2576
01:35:25,830 --> 01:35:22,719
three of you actually but you guys can

2577
01:35:28,149 --> 01:35:25,840
take turns and answer the question

2578
01:35:29,270 --> 01:35:28,159
to the best of your uh thinking about

2579
01:35:32,070 --> 01:35:29,280
what i have

2580
01:35:32,870 --> 01:35:32,080
um do you think uh looking at it from a

2581
01:35:36,310 --> 01:35:32,880
scientific

2582
01:35:38,709 --> 01:35:36,320
point of view the ufo uh

2583
01:35:39,830 --> 01:35:38,719
phenomenon do you think that it is a

2584
01:35:43,109 --> 01:35:39,840
threatening

2585
01:35:46,709 --> 01:35:43,119
presence or or are you at peace

2586
01:35:49,669 --> 01:35:46,719
when you see a sighting or when you

2587
01:35:50,950 --> 01:35:49,679
realize hey that's a not an airplane are

2588
01:35:56,629 --> 01:35:50,960
you afraid or

2589
01:35:59,189 --> 01:35:56,639
are you more curious about what you see

2590
01:35:59,910 --> 01:35:59,199
anyone want to take that i'll i'll say

2591
01:36:03,590 --> 01:35:59,920
that

2592
01:36:06,149 --> 01:36:03,600
i'm not afraid um my sister roxanne has

2593
01:36:10,790 --> 01:36:06,159
has admonished me not to go on a craft

2594
01:36:13,990 --> 01:36:10,800
if i have the chance

2595
01:36:17,510 --> 01:36:14,000
radiation or or some kind of

2596
01:36:20,790 --> 01:36:17,520
chemistry problem but my feeling is

2597
01:36:21,270 --> 01:36:20,800
if we're being visited by another

2598
01:36:23,590 --> 01:36:21,280
culture

2599
01:36:24,709 --> 01:36:23,600
either from another dimension and or

2600
01:36:28,390 --> 01:36:24,719
another

2601
01:36:31,669 --> 01:36:28,400
star system their technology

2602
01:36:33,189 --> 01:36:31,679
is so much more advanced than ours

2603
01:36:35,109 --> 01:36:33,199
it's almost like the singularity that we

2604
01:36:38,550 --> 01:36:35,119
cannot even comprehend it

2605
01:36:40,310 --> 01:36:38,560
so if they were here for malevolent

2606
01:36:43,510 --> 01:36:40,320
purposes

2607
01:36:45,350 --> 01:36:43,520
we wouldn't know it i mean okay maybe

2608
01:36:48,070 --> 01:36:45,360
they're here to interbreed and

2609
01:36:48,870 --> 01:36:48,080
and puppet master us i find that a

2610
01:36:51,990 --> 01:36:48,880
little bit

2611
01:36:55,350 --> 01:36:52,000
convoluted well i think if we were being

2612
01:36:56,629 --> 01:36:55,360
visited by different species who had bad

2613
01:37:00,550 --> 01:36:56,639
intent they were bad

2614
01:37:03,830 --> 01:37:00,560
cosmic actors i think we would know

2615
01:37:06,390 --> 01:37:03,840
yeah and that's a point often made um

2616
01:37:07,189 --> 01:37:06,400
if we even go back to the the summer of

2617
01:37:10,229 --> 01:37:07,199
47

2618
01:37:13,510 --> 01:37:10,239
the very you know modern age of ufology

2619
01:37:14,950 --> 01:37:13,520
as we would call it that

2620
01:37:17,669 --> 01:37:14,960
where was the first atomic bomb

2621
01:37:19,990 --> 01:37:17,679
detonated well new mexico

2622
01:37:21,030 --> 01:37:20,000
where was the first atomic bomb squadron

2623
01:37:23,590 --> 01:37:21,040
headquartered

2624
01:37:25,590 --> 01:37:23,600
roswell new mexico you had all the

2625
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:25,600
testing of the captured german v2

2626
01:37:29,510 --> 01:37:27,280
rockets at white sands

2627
01:37:31,270 --> 01:37:29,520
you had ongoing atomic research at los

2628
01:37:33,830 --> 01:37:31,280
alamos in new mexico

2629
01:37:35,590 --> 01:37:33,840
and according to project blue book where

2630
01:37:37,510 --> 01:37:35,600
were there more ufo sightings than

2631
01:37:40,629 --> 01:37:37,520
anywhere else in the world that time

2632
01:37:41,750 --> 01:37:40,639
but new mexico so it was as though the

2633
01:37:43,830 --> 01:37:41,760
phenomenon

2634
01:37:45,350 --> 01:37:43,840
was first checking out our military

2635
01:37:47,189 --> 01:37:45,360
potential

2636
01:37:48,629 --> 01:37:47,199
to see if we had a bigger stick than

2637
01:37:50,550 --> 01:37:48,639
they did

2638
01:37:51,990 --> 01:37:50,560
and after they realized we weren't a

2639
01:37:55,189 --> 01:37:52,000
threat to them though

2640
01:37:57,510 --> 01:37:55,199
it still appears it's very hands-off

2641
01:37:59,109 --> 01:37:57,520
very indifferent there clearly hasn't

2642
01:37:59,750 --> 01:37:59,119
been a landing on the white house front

2643
01:38:02,550 --> 01:37:59,760
lawn

2644
01:38:03,590 --> 01:38:02,560
because what is our typical reaction we

2645
01:38:06,709 --> 01:38:03,600
shoot first

2646
01:38:10,229 --> 01:38:06,719
and ask questions later yeah so

2647
01:38:11,109 --> 01:38:10,239
maybe in their vast knowledge beyond our

2648
01:38:13,510 --> 01:38:11,119
own

2649
01:38:14,629 --> 01:38:13,520
they realize that the best way to handle

2650
01:38:19,510 --> 01:38:14,639
us

2651
01:38:22,070 --> 01:38:19,520
keep it i mean

2652
01:38:23,030 --> 01:38:22,080
and as the old uh you know uh charles

2653
01:38:25,030 --> 01:38:23,040
fort you know

2654
01:38:27,270 --> 01:38:25,040
a suggestion that we may be the

2655
01:38:29,189 --> 01:38:27,280
universal insane asylum that all the

2656
01:38:32,229 --> 01:38:29,199
crazies are dumped here

2657
01:38:32,550 --> 01:38:32,239
and we're like the galactic zoo so they

2658
01:38:37,350 --> 01:38:32,560
know

2659
01:38:39,910 --> 01:38:37,360
we might be contagious

2660
01:38:41,030 --> 01:38:39,920
well thank you very much and martin what

2661
01:38:43,669 --> 01:38:41,040
about you

2662
01:38:44,070 --> 01:38:43,679
well i don't think um i think if they

2663
01:38:47,750 --> 01:38:44,080
were

2664
01:38:50,629 --> 01:38:47,760
malevolent we would uh benevolent that

2665
01:38:51,910 --> 01:38:50,639
we would know by now like like uh was

2666
01:38:55,270 --> 01:38:51,920
said earlier

2667
01:38:56,470 --> 01:38:55,280
but uh i i really don't i don't want to

2668
01:38:58,470 --> 01:38:56,480
say that

2669
01:38:59,590 --> 01:38:58,480
i don't know anything that's that's the

2670
01:39:01,350 --> 01:38:59,600
best way

2671
01:39:02,709 --> 01:39:01,360
um i can say you know some people have

2672
01:39:04,629 --> 01:39:02,719
said to me

2673
01:39:06,550 --> 01:39:04,639
i've heard people say well you know what

2674
01:39:08,550 --> 01:39:06,560
if we're they're not

2675
01:39:09,830 --> 01:39:08,560
uh doing anything because we're going to

2676
01:39:12,790 --> 01:39:09,840
be a harvest

2677
01:39:13,430 --> 01:39:12,800
well which is uh pretty gruesome but i

2678
01:39:15,430 --> 01:39:13,440
would say

2679
01:39:16,709 --> 01:39:15,440
to that um what are they waiting for

2680
01:39:18,629 --> 01:39:16,719
there's uh

2681
01:39:20,390 --> 01:39:18,639
plenty of billions of people to feed on

2682
01:39:22,629 --> 01:39:20,400
if they want to do that

2683
01:39:24,550 --> 01:39:22,639
so i don't know i have no idea what's

2684
01:39:27,030 --> 01:39:24,560
going on where they're from

2685
01:39:27,830 --> 01:39:27,040
um and you know like don mentioned

2686
01:39:30,390 --> 01:39:27,840
earlier this

2687
01:39:32,310 --> 01:39:30,400
the star travel how um you know the

2688
01:39:33,590 --> 01:39:32,320
nearest star i mentioned it last week an

2689
01:39:35,990 --> 01:39:33,600
astronomer said

2690
01:39:37,990 --> 01:39:36,000
um you know if the earth was the size of

2691
01:39:39,830 --> 01:39:38,000
a ball and a ballpoint pen

2692
01:39:42,790 --> 01:39:39,840
the nearest star would be out in

2693
01:39:45,510 --> 01:39:42,800
california if the ballpoint pen was in

2694
01:39:46,550 --> 01:39:45,520
washington dc so you know that to give

2695
01:39:49,990 --> 01:39:46,560
the scale

2696
01:39:51,430 --> 01:39:50,000
uh of uh distance is just it's so hard

2697
01:39:53,109 --> 01:39:51,440
to try to figure it out

2698
01:39:54,790 --> 01:39:53,119
how they get here they may have

2699
01:39:56,070 --> 01:39:54,800
something they know about physics if

2700
01:39:58,950 --> 01:39:56,080
they are traveling

2701
01:40:00,229 --> 01:39:58,960
through the stars um they may know

2702
01:40:01,270 --> 01:40:00,239
something about physics that we haven't

2703
01:40:04,870 --> 01:40:01,280
discovered yet

2704
01:40:06,709 --> 01:40:04,880
it's awful hard to see thank you

2705
01:40:08,629 --> 01:40:06,719
thanks for the call the lines are open

2706
01:40:12,390 --> 01:40:08,639
everyone oh we have another one uh

2707
01:40:14,950 --> 01:40:12,400
just came in go ahead who was talking

2708
01:40:16,149 --> 01:40:14,960
was it you john did you say something

2709
01:40:18,070 --> 01:40:16,159
paul was commenting

2710
01:40:19,189 --> 01:40:18,080
oh yeah one more point to make about

2711
01:40:23,270 --> 01:40:19,199
that martin you know

2712
01:40:26,870 --> 01:40:23,280
this notion of um evil aliens

2713
01:40:28,950 --> 01:40:26,880
kind of on par with a singularity

2714
01:40:29,990 --> 01:40:28,960
where artificial intelligence takes over

2715
01:40:33,590 --> 01:40:30,000
the world

2716
01:40:34,070 --> 01:40:33,600
and frankly i'm less concerned about

2717
01:40:37,189 --> 01:40:34,080
evil

2718
01:40:37,990 --> 01:40:37,199
aliens and artificial intelligence than

2719
01:40:40,950 --> 01:40:38,000
i am about

2720
01:40:42,709 --> 01:40:40,960
garden variety human stupidity because

2721
01:40:44,709 --> 01:40:42,719
especially in the year 2020

2722
01:40:47,030 --> 01:40:44,719
we've got problems of our own making

2723
01:40:48,470 --> 01:40:47,040
here and i'm not so concerned with what

2724
01:40:51,270 --> 01:40:48,480
others may do to us

2725
01:40:52,709 --> 01:40:51,280
but our own ability to survive on this

2726
01:40:54,550 --> 01:40:52,719
planet

2727
01:40:56,310 --> 01:40:54,560
i i agree with you wholeheartedly on

2728
01:40:59,510 --> 01:40:56,320
that

2729
01:41:03,109 --> 01:40:59,520
absolutely okay we have a uh we have

2730
01:41:06,149 --> 01:41:03,119
a couple calls here still we have um

2731
01:41:07,270 --> 01:41:06,159
looks like johnna jonah is it texas how

2732
01:41:10,629 --> 01:41:07,280
do you pronounce your name

2733
01:41:13,590 --> 01:41:10,639
yeah hi hi there

2734
01:41:14,709 --> 01:41:13,600
hi welcome to the show you have a

2735
01:41:17,750 --> 01:41:14,719
question for our

2736
01:41:20,870 --> 01:41:17,760
one of our guests yes

2737
01:41:24,070 --> 01:41:20,880
i was wondering from paul heineck if he

2738
01:41:27,669 --> 01:41:24,080
ever got to see the bet ball

2739
01:41:32,950 --> 01:41:27,679
or actually put his hands on it

2740
01:41:40,790 --> 01:41:37,270
i i did a a presentation at an alien com

2741
01:41:42,629 --> 01:41:40,800
which is a a lovely atmosphere and

2742
01:41:43,990 --> 01:41:42,639
somebody came up to me afterwards who

2743
01:41:47,430 --> 01:41:44,000
was affiliated with the

2744
01:41:49,350 --> 01:41:47,440
family and said um did you ever

2745
01:41:51,510 --> 01:41:49,360
have the best sphere did you ever see

2746
01:41:52,550 --> 01:41:51,520
that and i remembered when i was a

2747
01:41:56,390 --> 01:41:52,560
teenager

2748
01:41:58,390 --> 01:41:56,400
we had this funky silver

2749
01:41:59,590 --> 01:41:58,400
ball like i don't know if you can see my

2750
01:42:02,470 --> 01:41:59,600
hands about like that

2751
01:42:04,229 --> 01:42:02,480
diameter that we would kick around on

2752
01:42:07,910 --> 01:42:04,239
the floor in the basement

2753
01:42:09,669 --> 01:42:07,920
and the the story was it it was

2754
01:42:12,149 --> 01:42:09,679
some kind of industrial ball bearing or

2755
01:42:13,109 --> 01:42:12,159
something but it seemed kind of strange

2756
01:42:15,350 --> 01:42:13,119
to me

2757
01:42:16,709 --> 01:42:15,360
and i never really got my father brought

2758
01:42:20,070 --> 01:42:16,719
it home one day

2759
01:42:21,669 --> 01:42:20,080
and later i thought well if my father

2760
01:42:24,390 --> 01:42:21,679
was hiding something

2761
01:42:25,030 --> 01:42:24,400
it's kind of like that um edgar allen

2762
01:42:27,109 --> 01:42:25,040
post or

2763
01:42:29,270 --> 01:42:27,119
you put it out in plain sight give it to

2764
01:42:30,310 --> 01:42:29,280
your you know your long-haired teenage

2765
01:42:31,109 --> 01:42:30,320
kids who are just going to play with

2766
01:42:32,709 --> 01:42:31,119
their basement

2767
01:42:34,550 --> 01:42:32,719
no one will ever think to look for

2768
01:42:36,390 --> 01:42:34,560
something down there

2769
01:42:38,550 --> 01:42:36,400
i don't know what happened to that

2770
01:42:40,470 --> 01:42:38,560
sphere and i really don't know

2771
01:42:41,990 --> 01:42:40,480
if it was the best sphere i tend to

2772
01:42:46,790 --> 01:42:42,000
doubt it but that's all

2773
01:42:53,590 --> 01:42:51,430
okay turn up maybe

2774
01:42:55,430 --> 01:42:53,600
maybe i love it all right hey thank you

2775
01:42:59,270 --> 01:42:55,440
for the call

2776
01:43:02,310 --> 01:42:59,280
thank you all right we do have uh

2777
01:43:04,790 --> 01:43:02,320
looks like ray it could be the ray ray

2778
01:43:09,109 --> 01:43:04,800
stanford possibly from maryland

2779
01:43:12,149 --> 01:43:09,119
thank you i'm sorry is this ray stanford

2780
01:43:12,870 --> 01:43:12,159
yes yes uh ray if you have your computer

2781
01:43:14,310 --> 01:43:12,880
volume on

2782
01:43:16,629 --> 01:43:14,320
uh for the show you're gonna have to

2783
01:43:17,510 --> 01:43:16,639
mute it i've heard some feedback right

2784
01:43:20,709 --> 01:43:17,520
there hey can i

2785
01:43:22,790 --> 01:43:20,719
call back i did that that took up about

2786
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:22,800
my phone has a problem it cuts off after

2787
01:43:25,830 --> 01:43:24,800
10 minutes advantage has got a problem

2788
01:43:28,149 --> 01:43:25,840
they're trying to correct

2789
01:43:29,910 --> 01:43:28,159
and it can i call back so that i have

2790
01:43:31,590 --> 01:43:29,920
you back two things okay no problem

2791
01:43:35,590 --> 01:43:31,600
please enjoy can i call right

2792
01:43:37,030 --> 01:43:35,600
back yep and uh ray was not uh joking

2793
01:43:40,229 --> 01:43:37,040
about that 10 minute thing

2794
01:43:42,870 --> 01:43:40,239
i talked to him a day or two ago

2795
01:43:44,310 --> 01:43:42,880
and his phone every 10 minutes exactly

2796
01:43:47,350 --> 01:43:44,320
on the second hangs up

2797
01:43:49,189 --> 01:43:47,360
it's a very strange um he

2798
01:43:50,629 --> 01:43:49,199
he has no idea why that's happening but

2799
01:43:52,470 --> 01:43:50,639
it was right to the second it's pretty

2800
01:43:54,629 --> 01:43:52,480
scary he's calling back now

2801
01:43:56,149 --> 01:43:54,639
i'm gonna give him a minute for the

2802
01:43:59,189 --> 01:43:56,159
field yeah

2803
01:44:01,510 --> 01:43:59,199
yeah someone's listening it's

2804
01:44:03,430 --> 01:44:01,520
possible yeah we've got a caller who can

2805
01:44:04,830 --> 01:44:03,440
only call for 10 minutes and a host who

2806
01:44:07,750 --> 01:44:04,840
we can't see

2807
01:44:10,870 --> 01:44:07,760
yeah now wait a minute i want to show

2808
01:44:13,990 --> 01:44:10,880
you something look at what happened

2809
01:44:16,149 --> 01:44:14,000
wow nope just like that yeah

2810
01:44:17,750 --> 01:44:16,159
finally the uh the the light came over

2811
01:44:20,070 --> 01:44:17,760
the right way okay i'm gonna bring

2812
01:44:21,990 --> 01:44:20,080
ray back on the air ray how are you how

2813
01:44:25,590 --> 01:44:22,000
are you doing tonight

2814
01:44:28,070 --> 01:44:25,600
i'm doing fine hi hi i'm gonna

2815
01:44:29,510 --> 01:44:28,080
i i'm the volume seems a little low i'm

2816
01:44:31,430 --> 01:44:29,520
going to turn it up or hold on just a

2817
01:44:33,910 --> 01:44:31,440
moment

2818
01:44:34,950 --> 01:44:33,920
this is the ray stanford that wrote the

2819
01:44:38,149 --> 01:44:34,960
socorro book

2820
01:44:40,070 --> 01:44:38,159
yes right hey i just

2821
01:44:41,669 --> 01:44:40,080
thought it would be nice to call in and

2822
01:44:42,709 --> 01:44:41,679
add a couple of little brief stories a

2823
01:44:45,669 --> 01:44:42,719
little mirth

2824
01:44:47,590 --> 01:44:45,679
that paul might enjoy about his dad

2825
01:44:50,950 --> 01:44:47,600
absolutely

2826
01:44:53,270 --> 01:44:50,960
okay uh well he visited us uh

2827
01:44:55,030 --> 01:44:53,280
both in well in phoenix and san antonio

2828
01:44:56,390 --> 01:44:55,040
and then finally when i moved to austin

2829
01:44:57,669 --> 01:44:56,400
all those years and visiting our

2830
01:45:00,550 --> 01:44:57,679
laboratory down there

2831
01:45:01,510 --> 01:45:00,560
and uh one time he came in the airport

2832
01:45:04,149 --> 01:45:01,520
and

2833
01:45:05,270 --> 01:45:04,159
he i i wanted to help him carry his

2834
01:45:06,550 --> 01:45:05,280
luggage he had

2835
01:45:09,510 --> 01:45:06,560
looked like heavy luggage and a

2836
01:45:11,109 --> 01:45:09,520
briefcase and so i grabbed the luggage

2837
01:45:13,189 --> 01:45:11,119
and he said oh ray don't don't bother

2838
01:45:16,149 --> 01:45:13,199
with that just take the briefcase

2839
01:45:18,070 --> 01:45:16,159
so i grabbed the briefcase and my gosh

2840
01:45:20,470 --> 01:45:18,080
it felt like it weighed 40 pounds

2841
01:45:21,189 --> 01:45:20,480
not really but it felt that way and i

2842
01:45:24,629 --> 01:45:21,199
said

2843
01:45:25,830 --> 01:45:24,639
here do you have a nickel iron meteorite

2844
01:45:28,390 --> 01:45:25,840
in here

2845
01:45:29,750 --> 01:45:28,400
and he said no i said what in the world

2846
01:45:32,229 --> 01:45:29,760
is in here then

2847
01:45:32,790 --> 01:45:32,239
he said we'll open it up and i opened it

2848
01:45:35,350 --> 01:45:32,800
up

2849
01:45:37,030 --> 01:45:35,360
and there i beheld an incredibly

2850
01:45:41,830 --> 01:45:37,040
beautiful expensive looking

2851
01:45:44,709 --> 01:45:41,840
uh cut glass container full of whiskey

2852
01:45:46,709 --> 01:45:44,719
and i said alan you never impressed me

2853
01:45:50,550 --> 01:45:46,719
as being much of a drinker

2854
01:45:53,430 --> 01:45:50,560
and uh he said well you gotta understand

2855
01:45:54,629 --> 01:45:53,440
i'm heading to a meeting with pilots to

2856
01:45:57,189 --> 01:45:54,639
try to get him to talk about their

2857
01:46:00,950 --> 01:45:59,990
pilots yeah just who you want to drink

2858
01:46:04,310 --> 01:46:00,960
yeah

2859
01:46:08,229 --> 01:46:04,320
and he would do that he would

2860
01:46:12,470 --> 01:46:11,109
they'll loosen their a little bit

2861
01:46:15,510 --> 01:46:12,480
different but uh

2862
01:46:17,910 --> 01:46:15,520
paul admits that his dad was

2863
01:46:20,310 --> 01:46:17,920
at times a bit absent-minded and i have

2864
01:46:22,990 --> 01:46:20,320
a wonderful story to tell about that

2865
01:46:24,550 --> 01:46:23,000
uh in front of me is a letter of july 6

2866
01:46:27,030 --> 01:46:24,560
1976 which

2867
01:46:28,470 --> 01:46:27,040
he had written to give me uh something

2868
01:46:30,870 --> 01:46:28,480
to use in promoting the

2869
01:46:32,149 --> 01:46:30,880
socorro book and uh of course he and i

2870
01:46:33,030 --> 01:46:32,159
were there together at the site in

2871
01:46:36,390 --> 01:46:33,040
socorro

2872
01:46:40,709 --> 01:46:36,400
in 1964. and um so uh

2873
01:46:42,629 --> 01:46:40,719
in there he he says uh uh let's see

2874
01:46:44,709 --> 01:46:42,639
if says stanford has transformed the

2875
01:46:46,070 --> 01:46:44,719
case from a one witness matter to a

2876
01:46:47,830 --> 01:46:46,080
multi-witness case

2877
01:46:49,669 --> 01:46:47,840
and thus has accomplished what the air

2878
01:46:53,030 --> 01:46:49,679
force failed to do

2879
01:46:56,149 --> 01:46:53,040
well here's the uh the the funny

2880
01:46:56,550 --> 01:46:56,159
component of that so um we were uh one

2881
01:46:59,990 --> 01:46:56,560
time

2882
01:47:00,709 --> 01:47:00,000
um we were he was visiting austin and we

2883
01:47:02,709 --> 01:47:00,719
were riding

2884
01:47:04,310 --> 01:47:02,719
from our offices out to our lab site

2885
01:47:05,109 --> 01:47:04,320
from to see the latest installment of

2886
01:47:08,550 --> 01:47:05,119
equipment

2887
01:47:11,109 --> 01:47:08,560
and he said ray he said you know

2888
01:47:12,310 --> 01:47:11,119
he said how did you come up with those

2889
01:47:15,590 --> 01:47:12,320
two witnesses paul

2890
01:47:17,189 --> 01:47:15,600
kais and larry kratzer in your book he

2891
01:47:19,350 --> 01:47:17,199
said you know the air force tried to

2892
01:47:21,350 --> 01:47:19,360
find additional witnesses

2893
01:47:22,870 --> 01:47:21,360
and i worried where did you come up with

2894
01:47:25,910 --> 01:47:22,880
that and i said

2895
01:47:26,790 --> 01:47:25,920
alan i are you sure you want to know and

2896
01:47:29,270 --> 01:47:26,800
he said yes

2897
01:47:30,229 --> 01:47:29,280
i want to know and i said okay the truth

2898
01:47:32,070 --> 01:47:30,239
of matter is

2899
01:47:33,350 --> 01:47:32,080
that information came out of a

2900
01:47:37,669 --> 01:47:33,360
corrugated box

2901
01:47:40,629 --> 01:47:37,679
in your attic in your home

2902
01:47:41,270 --> 01:47:40,639
and he said wait a minute how is that

2903
01:47:42,870 --> 01:47:41,280
possible

2904
01:47:45,109 --> 01:47:42,880
i said well you know the forward

2905
01:47:48,070 --> 01:47:45,119
searcher who studies uh

2906
01:47:48,470 --> 01:47:48,080
occupant cases in new york uh he said uh

2907
01:47:53,910 --> 01:47:48,480
he

2908
01:47:55,669 --> 01:47:53,920
kinds of

2909
01:47:57,189 --> 01:47:55,679
articles and things you might find

2910
01:47:58,790 --> 01:47:57,199
interesting in this context

2911
01:47:59,910 --> 01:47:58,800
he said i was up there and i found this

2912
01:48:00,550 --> 01:47:59,920
and i thought of you that you were

2913
01:48:02,950 --> 01:48:00,560
writing

2914
01:48:04,310 --> 01:48:02,960
a book on socorro and i thought you

2915
01:48:06,390 --> 01:48:04,320
ought to know about it

2916
01:48:07,990 --> 01:48:06,400
well the irony of this all is that

2917
01:48:11,270 --> 01:48:08,000
actually alan had uh

2918
01:48:11,910 --> 01:48:11,280
i found out later had paid he'd offered

2919
01:48:15,030 --> 01:48:11,920
uh

2920
01:48:17,990 --> 01:48:15,040
i think it was 150 maybe it wasn't but

2921
01:48:20,390 --> 01:48:18,000
if somebody if somebody could find him

2922
01:48:22,950 --> 01:48:20,400
another witness to the sakura case

2923
01:48:23,750 --> 01:48:22,960
and uh so someone had sent him this

2924
01:48:27,270 --> 01:48:23,760
article

2925
01:48:28,950 --> 01:48:27,280
from the dubuque uh uh paper

2926
01:48:31,189 --> 01:48:28,960
with the with paul coyle and merry

2927
01:48:32,709 --> 01:48:31,199
christmas photographs and

2928
01:48:34,790 --> 01:48:32,719
and they had told that they were

2929
01:48:38,870 --> 01:48:34,800
witnesses and so

2930
01:48:41,270 --> 01:48:38,880
uh sorry ray

2931
01:48:42,790 --> 01:48:41,280
sorry ray uh we were getting some

2932
01:48:43,750 --> 01:48:42,800
feedback i don't know what was going on

2933
01:48:45,510 --> 01:48:43,760
there with the phone

2934
01:48:47,990 --> 01:48:45,520
he's got some weird phone stuff going on

2935
01:48:50,950 --> 01:48:48,000
but we have one more caller and uh

2936
01:48:51,430 --> 01:48:50,960
great stories huh one more caller we

2937
01:48:53,830 --> 01:48:51,440
have

2938
01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:53,840
chris uh calling from houston welcome to

2939
01:48:59,189 --> 01:48:55,760
the show chris

2940
01:49:01,590 --> 01:48:59,199
hi um i have a question about a couple

2941
01:49:02,310 --> 01:49:01,600
of topics that i'm wondering if uh dr

2942
01:49:04,790 --> 01:49:02,320
heineck

2943
01:49:06,790 --> 01:49:04,800
um spoke about it was concerned about

2944
01:49:09,030 --> 01:49:06,800
with any group with the

2945
01:49:10,070 --> 01:49:09,040
dinner table group or more scientific

2946
01:49:12,390 --> 01:49:10,080
group um

2947
01:49:14,310 --> 01:49:12,400
two topics one is about in terms of the

2948
01:49:16,070 --> 01:49:14,320
distance of travel uh

2949
01:49:17,430 --> 01:49:16,080
you mentioned interstellar you mentioned

2950
01:49:19,910 --> 01:49:17,440
you know maybe non

2951
01:49:20,709 --> 01:49:19,920
nuts and bolts other kinds of things but

2952
01:49:23,109 --> 01:49:20,719
does anybody

2953
01:49:23,750 --> 01:49:23,119
have did they was there consideration or

2954
01:49:26,070 --> 01:49:23,760
talk about

2955
01:49:28,070 --> 01:49:26,080
the possibility did he have views about

2956
01:49:30,229 --> 01:49:28,080
the possibility of closer travel

2957
01:49:32,950 --> 01:49:30,239
like from other planets in our system

2958
01:49:34,390 --> 01:49:32,960
and the feasibility of the idea that we

2959
01:49:36,950 --> 01:49:34,400
there might be

2960
01:49:37,430 --> 01:49:36,960
an advanced people out there running

2961
01:49:39,830 --> 01:49:37,440
around

2962
01:49:40,950 --> 01:49:39,840
in our near space that we wouldn't know

2963
01:49:43,030 --> 01:49:40,960
about

2964
01:49:45,430 --> 01:49:43,040
the second one and and i'll i'll take it

2965
01:49:48,790 --> 01:49:45,440
off there but the second topic is

2966
01:49:50,470 --> 01:49:48,800
relative to the nuclear connection uh

2967
01:49:52,790 --> 01:49:50,480
the atomic bomb connection with the

2968
01:49:55,990 --> 01:49:52,800
beginning of the of the

2969
01:49:58,629 --> 01:49:56,000
major fightings and the the reports of

2970
01:49:59,430 --> 01:49:58,639
over flights of facilities uh after that

2971
01:50:02,070 --> 01:49:59,440
um

2972
01:50:02,790 --> 01:50:02,080
was there concern and you mentioned the

2973
01:50:06,149 --> 01:50:02,800
tendency

2974
01:50:07,350 --> 01:50:06,159
military to shoot first and ask

2975
01:50:10,310 --> 01:50:07,360
questions later

2976
01:50:10,709 --> 01:50:10,320
um which didn't happen on the nimitz of

2977
01:50:14,070 --> 01:50:10,719
course

2978
01:50:16,870 --> 01:50:14,080
um but um the um

2979
01:50:19,830 --> 01:50:16,880
the question is did that did the topic

2980
01:50:20,390 --> 01:50:19,840
of the danger of military response come

2981
01:50:22,070 --> 01:50:20,400
up

2982
01:50:23,990 --> 01:50:22,080
was there concern about what might

2983
01:50:27,189 --> 01:50:24,000
happen or any scenarios

2984
01:50:27,669 --> 01:50:27,199
laid out or played out about what might

2985
01:50:30,950 --> 01:50:27,679
happen

2986
01:50:32,870 --> 01:50:30,960
if we were hostile to them so that's

2987
01:50:36,070 --> 01:50:32,880
i'll take it off here

2988
01:50:42,470 --> 01:50:39,430
anyone want to take

2989
01:50:45,589 --> 01:50:42,480
the phenomenon being much closer

2990
01:50:46,550 --> 01:50:45,599
than dealing with the the vast distances

2991
01:50:48,709 --> 01:50:46,560
of space

2992
01:50:50,229 --> 01:50:48,719
yes we would we would talk about even

2993
01:50:52,310 --> 01:50:50,239
just uh like a

2994
01:50:53,430 --> 01:50:52,320
like a mother ship like a starship

2995
01:50:55,270 --> 01:50:53,440
enterprise

2996
01:50:57,669 --> 01:50:55,280
that happened to be within our solar

2997
01:50:59,990 --> 01:50:57,679
system uh we would talk uh

2998
01:51:01,430 --> 01:51:00,000
at times even the discussion of the

2999
01:51:04,149 --> 01:51:01,440
hollow earth which

3000
01:51:06,070 --> 01:51:04,159
was would be immediately discounted but

3001
01:51:07,350 --> 01:51:06,080
nonetheless we would talk about the

3002
01:51:10,470 --> 01:51:07,360
phenomenon

3003
01:51:13,270 --> 01:51:10,480
setting up shop here that there could be

3004
01:51:14,149 --> 01:51:13,280
you know bases underground there could

3005
01:51:17,589 --> 01:51:14,159
be

3006
01:51:19,350 --> 01:51:17,599
you know domed uh bases under the oceans

3007
01:51:21,669 --> 01:51:19,360
that type of thing

3008
01:51:22,870 --> 01:51:21,679
and and dr heineck always came back to

3009
01:51:25,669 --> 01:51:22,880
the fact that we we

3010
01:51:27,430 --> 01:51:25,679
we have just too many sightings too many

3011
01:51:28,390 --> 01:51:27,440
i mean every day there are reports

3012
01:51:30,149 --> 01:51:28,400
coming in

3013
01:51:32,390 --> 01:51:30,159
and he would say i would be much more

3014
01:51:34,229 --> 01:51:32,400
comfortable if we would have one good

3015
01:51:37,270 --> 01:51:34,239
sighting a year

3016
01:51:39,910 --> 01:51:37,280
which would be more much more you know

3017
01:51:41,109 --> 01:51:39,920
symbolic of something traveling such

3018
01:51:43,589 --> 01:51:41,119
great distances

3019
01:51:45,510 --> 01:51:43,599
as opposed to something that is able to

3020
01:51:48,790 --> 01:51:45,520
pop in and out as i use that

3021
01:51:49,669 --> 01:51:48,800
phrase earlier at will suggesting that

3022
01:51:52,470 --> 01:51:49,679
it's something

3023
01:51:53,030 --> 01:51:52,480
around us something here possibly from

3024
01:51:57,589 --> 01:51:53,040
another

3025
01:52:01,109 --> 01:51:57,599
that type of thing

3026
01:52:01,830 --> 01:52:01,119
and so again much to dr jalen heineck's

3027
01:52:03,990 --> 01:52:01,840
credit

3028
01:52:04,950 --> 01:52:04,000
that he was open and willing to

3029
01:52:08,390 --> 01:52:04,960
entertain

3030
01:52:10,470 --> 01:52:08,400
every possible solution to the ufo

3031
01:52:13,910 --> 01:52:10,480
mystery

3032
01:52:14,470 --> 01:52:13,920
wow very interesting uh we have to close

3033
01:52:17,189 --> 01:52:14,480
the show

3034
01:52:19,109 --> 01:52:17,199
in just two minutes but i i mean i can

3035
01:52:20,070 --> 01:52:19,119
continue a little bit longer we're done

3036
01:52:22,229 --> 01:52:20,080
with calls

3037
01:52:23,669 --> 01:52:22,239
but i think we can pretty much uh wrap

3038
01:52:27,109 --> 01:52:23,679
this up we just have

3039
01:52:29,910 --> 01:52:27,119
like a minute and a half actually so um

3040
01:52:32,149 --> 01:52:29,920
i don i i have to apologize to you we

3041
01:52:34,229 --> 01:52:32,159
never really got to talk about your book

3042
01:52:35,830 --> 01:52:34,239
oh not at all this was one well

3043
01:52:38,390 --> 01:52:35,840
especially and i hope i can do this

3044
01:52:41,350 --> 01:52:38,400
again with paul because it's just

3045
01:52:43,030 --> 01:52:41,360
a rush of memories i mean we could

3046
01:52:45,510 --> 01:52:43,040
between the two of us just some of the

3047
01:52:47,669 --> 01:52:45,520
anecdotal stories you know

3048
01:52:49,589 --> 01:52:47,679
uh when i would i had the good fortune

3049
01:52:50,070 --> 01:52:49,599
being on a radio program but alan one

3050
01:52:51,750 --> 01:52:50,080
time

3051
01:52:54,070 --> 01:52:51,760
and then the late bud hopkins what

3052
01:52:56,629 --> 01:52:54,080
happened when alan fell asleep one time

3053
01:52:58,950 --> 01:52:56,639
during the middle of a radio interview

3054
01:53:02,149 --> 01:52:58,960
live in studio that type of thing

3055
01:53:03,030 --> 01:53:02,159
uh so we need to do this again just

3056
01:53:06,149 --> 01:53:03,040
because

3057
01:53:09,270 --> 01:53:06,159
uh i i i truly enjoyed this

3058
01:53:12,310 --> 01:53:09,280
and especially doing it with paul

3059
01:53:15,589 --> 01:53:12,320
yeah john tell us the name of the book

3060
01:53:17,830 --> 01:53:15,599
oh uh the new book is i have to look

3061
01:53:19,669 --> 01:53:17,840
thank you paul there's been so many

3062
01:53:22,709 --> 01:53:19,679
roswell the ultimate cold

3063
01:53:24,470 --> 01:53:22,719
case closed so in other words our name

3064
01:53:27,510 --> 01:53:24,480
court we present our

3065
01:53:29,830 --> 01:53:27,520
our opening arguments as to why

3066
01:53:30,550 --> 01:53:29,840
we are convinced that roswell indeed did

3067
01:53:33,189 --> 01:53:30,560
happen

3068
01:53:34,790 --> 01:53:33,199
and then we present our evidentiary and

3069
01:53:36,149 --> 01:53:34,800
then our closing arguments our

3070
01:53:38,470 --> 01:53:36,159
eyewitness you know

3071
01:53:39,589 --> 01:53:38,480
testimonies are supportive of that very

3072
01:53:42,870 --> 01:53:39,599
conviction

3073
01:53:44,229 --> 01:53:42,880
and so this will be our our last book as

3074
01:53:46,629 --> 01:53:44,239
far as demonstrate

3075
01:53:48,790 --> 01:53:46,639
what we believe is uh the granddaddy of

3076
01:53:50,310 --> 01:53:48,800
all ufo cases roswell

3077
01:53:51,830 --> 01:53:50,320
all right well for right now i'm just

3078
01:53:53,589 --> 01:53:51,840
going to say goodbye to everyone over at

3079
01:53:56,709 --> 01:53:53,599
kgra radio

3080
01:53:57,510 --> 01:53:56,719
and we will be back next week with linda

3081
01:53:58,629 --> 01:53:57,520
zimmerman

3082
01:54:00,149 --> 01:53:58,639
so goodbye over there we're going to

3083
01:54:01,430 --> 01:54:00,159
continue just a couple more minutes

3084
01:54:02,070 --> 01:54:01,440
because i don't want to just shut you

3085
01:54:05,510 --> 01:54:02,080
off

3086
01:54:07,910 --> 01:54:05,520
um all right so uh

3087
01:54:09,910 --> 01:54:07,920
uh paul i just wanted to tell you thank

3088
01:54:10,550 --> 01:54:09,920
you so much it's always been a pleasure

3089
01:54:13,830 --> 01:54:10,560
and uh

3090
01:54:17,270 --> 01:54:13,840
i love your sense of humor you have a uh

3091
01:54:19,589 --> 01:54:17,280
father yes he inherited it

3092
01:54:21,189 --> 01:54:19,599
it was so fun so much fun to hang out

3093
01:54:23,189 --> 01:54:21,199
with you in phoenix with

3094
01:54:24,310 --> 01:54:23,199
calvin parker and a few other people do

3095
01:54:26,790 --> 01:54:24,320
you remember that

3096
01:54:28,070 --> 01:54:26,800
that woman that was stalking us do you

3097
01:54:29,030 --> 01:54:28,080
remember that woman she was kind of

3098
01:54:32,149 --> 01:54:29,040
scary

3099
01:54:35,830 --> 01:54:32,159
yeah without shoes that's the one yeah

3100
01:54:38,629 --> 01:54:35,840
is she still did she show up at your

3101
01:54:39,350 --> 01:54:38,639
married her so please tread carefully on

3102
01:54:42,390 --> 01:54:39,360
that

3103
01:54:44,390 --> 01:54:42,400
well hey

3104
01:54:45,910 --> 01:54:44,400
thanks i really really appreciate it i

3105
01:54:46,790 --> 01:54:45,920
had a lot of fun tonight thank you so

3106
01:54:50,629 --> 01:54:46,800
much

3107
01:54:53,109 --> 01:54:50,639
and uh i would love to do this again

3108
01:54:53,990 --> 01:54:53,119
say hi to calvin for me uh when you talk

3109
01:54:56,229 --> 01:54:54,000
to him paul

3110
01:54:57,589 --> 01:54:56,239
well i talked to him as well so i know

3111
01:54:59,350 --> 01:54:57,599
oh you do yeah

3112
01:55:01,270 --> 01:54:59,360
what a great guy yeah i'm trying to get

3113
01:55:05,750 --> 01:55:01,280
it i've had a great guy not a great guy

3114
01:55:10,070 --> 01:55:08,709
yeah i've said a few times on this show

3115
01:55:12,550 --> 01:55:10,080
that i'm trying to get

3116
01:55:13,510 --> 01:55:12,560
uh calvin and uh the new witnesses that

3117
01:55:15,990 --> 01:55:13,520
came forward

3118
01:55:18,149 --> 01:55:16,000
all together on the show to talk about

3119
01:55:19,669 --> 01:55:18,159
that you know in a case that old

3120
01:55:21,189 --> 01:55:19,679
isn't that amazing it could still get

3121
01:55:22,950 --> 01:55:21,199
new new witnesses

3122
01:55:24,870 --> 01:55:22,960
that feel comfortable enough to come

3123
01:55:27,750 --> 01:55:24,880
forward that case is kind of like a

3124
01:55:31,109 --> 01:55:27,760
tesla it gets more valuable over time

3125
01:55:34,310 --> 01:55:31,119
right and more solids and again much

3126
01:55:38,149 --> 01:55:34,320
credit to calvin for standing you know

3127
01:55:40,950 --> 01:55:38,159
tall as far as now by himself and uh

3128
01:55:41,430 --> 01:55:40,960
yeah he's a good man he is and you know

3129
01:55:43,270 --> 01:55:41,440
um

3130
01:55:45,109 --> 01:55:43,280
he's a very intelligent man and he's

3131
01:55:46,310 --> 01:55:45,119
done very well in life he's done a lot

3132
01:55:49,030 --> 01:55:46,320
of things he's

3133
01:55:49,750 --> 01:55:49,040
what a go-getter that guy is and we hope

3134
01:55:52,790 --> 01:55:49,760
his health

3135
01:55:55,510 --> 01:55:52,800
holds out because we know he's got some

3136
01:55:56,390 --> 01:55:55,520
major health issues at the moment right

3137
01:55:59,830 --> 01:55:56,400
right

3138
01:56:02,229 --> 01:55:59,840
much guys

3139
01:56:03,589 --> 01:56:02,239
thank you all right good night good

3140
01:56:04,310 --> 01:56:03,599
night whoops i didn't mean to cut him

3141
01:56:06,470 --> 01:56:04,320
off again

3142
01:56:08,229 --> 01:56:06,480
but i did anyway thank you everyone for

3143
01:56:10,229 --> 01:56:08,239
listening and don't forget to come back

3144
01:56:11,589 --> 01:56:10,239
next week with uh linda zimmerman

3145
01:56:14,390 --> 01:56:11,599
i want to thank everyone that helps out

3146
01:56:34,380 --> 01:56:14,400
with the show and